Firebird Mess85

I'm looking for any personal experiences repainting a whole car. I'm doing a color change and can either rattle can this thing with the rustolium cans or try to buy a 3-5hp 60 gallon compressor and gun and spray it. That compressor is about the max of my budget but I'm concerned it's not enough cfm to have a good paint job or work a dual action sander. I really doubted the rattle can thing but I've seen some impressive results when you take your time. I'm not looking for a show car, hence the low budget. I just would hate to invest in the compressor now if it's not really good enough. I'd rather just rattle it now if that's the case and get something heavy duty later. If I do use the cans, what is the best electric sander for sanding the whole car and some light bondo work.

Any pics of a rattle caned job you guys have done would be appreciated.

haps

iTrader: (4)

If you rattlecan it now, it'll cost 10 times as much to strip it off when you want to do a real repaint later. Save your money and do it correctly when you can afford to.

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

if you must do a home made paint job buy an eletric paint sprayer since you cant afford the compressor thats big enough to run a gun

but i would wait or get a el cheapo paint job at a cheap spray paint shop

Firebird Mess85

I kept reading that the electric sprayers don't maintain cfm and you end up with paint spit out on the car irratically rather than smoothly.

I got quoted $1800 to do a urythane paint job with clear. That was my el cheapo job. Just thought I could do that same quality for less.

spurgeon76

Rent the compressor, then you only have to worry about the paint and gun.

Firebird Mess85

I've tried this but the only one I can find that'll do the job is an 80cfm diesel towable unit.
http://www.abcwny.com/getproduct.cfm?productid=1110

camarotucker

iTrader: (2)

Spray painting seems like it would give uneven coverage. A paint roller would give a more consistant coverage.

Firebird Mess85

Oh, the other thing is that most the big 80 gallon compressors use 220v and I really don't see running a 220 line out to my garage.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I had what could have been the nicest rattle can job in this board. I prepped, color sanded and buffed the car like a pro would have done an old time lacquer job. I had my reasons for doing it, and I still wish I hadn't. I spend a ton of money on countless cans of paint, it was very hard to get one can to match another, and despite the paint looking really nice originally, it turned into a blotchy 10 footer within months, and was on its way to becoming a 20 footer if I hadn't done something about it.

the problem was two things... rattle can paint goes on very thin, and it dulls very easily. To combat the second problem you have to buff frequently, but you can't without confronting the first problem.

In the end, I wish I had fixed the dents, and covered the entire car in epoxy primer (which can be done with a small compressor when using a LVLP gun) and left the car that way until I could afford to paint it right myself, or do a MAACO job. Maaco can do a nice job if you prep the car yourself, and it's not that expensive. I find it funny that some of the people that blast maaco are the same people that will rattlecan a car.

And yes, if you decide to take the rattle can off, it's a mess. Lacquer will clog sandpaper like nothing else. I got so tired of sanding lacquer off, I decided to just replace my hood rather than mess with getting all the old lacquer off.

here's my car in it's prime of rattle can. I think it looked this nice for a week, and then it was impossible to maintain







the stripes were painted with professional lacquer out of a can with a gun. notice the difference in shine between them and the body. the problem isn't that lacquer can't shine, because it can. the problem is you can't buff and shine an inferior paint like rattlecan

Firebird Mess85

58mark, thanks a ton for your pics and experience! I can deff. see the difference between the two parts. Most of that $1800 I was quoted was prep work so you bring up a good point about doing your own prep work. I don't have a Maaco by me but the place I took it to was comparable. They told me not to leave it primed though because it'll just absorb water and rust.

Assuming I do the priming with an lvlp gun what size compressor and cfm is required just for this?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

that's why I suggested epoxy primer. It doesn't absorb water like regular primer does. There is no reason you couldn't leave it in primer for years. You would want to light sand it and apply a sealer (more epoxy) before you painted it.

Go check out the SPI forum and ask some questions about epoxy primer. It's great.

My Grizzly H7667 LVLP gun has a CFM of 3.9 and does a 9 inch pattern. Remember CFM isn't really all that important when priming because you can do a panel at a time. there isn't the requirement to go all the way around the car in one shot

Firebird Mess85

What is the SPI forum?

So I understand you, I'd sand and bondo then seal with epoxy primer or a different epoxy sealer before priming?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

SPI epoxy can be used before or after filler (get something better than bondo, like rage or Z-grip)

so...
1.sand
2.Epoxy over the area that you are about to fill
3.Fill, sand, fill, sand, fill, sand until smooth

4.High build primer to get any small imperfections you didn't get with filler.

5. epoxy the whole car

6. if it's more than a couple weeks until you can paint the car, light sand and put on one more reduced coat of epoxy right before you paint


If it's really a budget job that you don't care about small imperfections, skip step 4.

here's the SPI forum link for the primer section. SPI is a great product, for a good price. Free shipping too!
http://www.spiuserforum.com/forumdisplay.php?27-Primers

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

i painted a hood with a wagner type paint gun and no one could tell, i think it depends on how you mix your paint too and how good of a gun u get

Firebird Mess85

Thanks to everyone for the advice!

Any tips on a good electric sander?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

as a matter of fact, yes!

I bought a Skil brand, and it fell apart right away, I got replacement parts, and it then died

I finished the job with this one, and was very happy with it

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D26451K...6395600&sr=8-4

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

For a decent cheap primer gun, grab an HVLP gun over at harbor freight. The painters at a local big body shop even use them lol. Then of course they use their nice guns for the color and clear.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

It's true they can do a good job for primer, but for a small compressor a good LVLP gun should be considered

startat2

iTrader: (2)

I'm with the guy that says rent the compressor and paint it yourself. If you can't rent one, find a buddy (relative, coworker, anyone) with one you can borrow. Unless you have surface rust or something requiring a paint job now, wait until you can either do it right yourself or have the funds to pay some one to do it right. Personally for things I want to look real nice, I take them to a paint shop, but I also have a buddy that does paint/body for a living. For my last project however, I decided to paint if myself. I used a cheap compressor I got at a pawn shop, a gun, and some satin black paint. Its not the prettiest car in the world, but I did it myself, and didn't want something perfect for a mostly drag car.

Here is a few photos and a link to the build thread I have going in the engine swap section.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-vs-350-a.html




ETA the bottom picture is before I went back and did door jambs and wheel wells if you couldn't tell :P

Firebird Mess85

Springs here and I've decided not to rattle can it but I am painting in the next few weeks. I bought a 3-stage turbine HVLP setup that I'm going to shoot the Dupli-Color Paint Shop laquer paint. I need primer help though. The laquer primer is a lot less protective from what I've read so I do want to use something that won't cause the car to rust out quickly.

Can/should I use an epoxy or urethane primer under the laquer paint? Also I keep seeing mixed facts about painting over a factory paint job. My car has the factory paint job but the clear coat is shot on just about the whole car. Do I need to sand to bare metal or can I prime and paint over it?

haps

iTrader: (4)

At the very least the clear needs to come off. If you want to do it correctly, the color needs to come off as well. Ideally, you should strip the entire thing.

Looks at primers from Marhyde and Evercoat. I've been using the Evercoat Uro-Fill with excellent results and the best thing is, it's affordable.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

sand all the edges and chips away, the more even you get it, the better the final job will be. Epoxy as a sealer is always a great option, but if you want to do the job right, you should use a filler primer sandwiched between two layers of epoxy.

in a nutshell, here's the steps I would take

epoxy the entire car
put a good quality filler (not bondo) and that down smooth with an electric or air powered DA sander
Spray 3 coats of filler primer over the entire car, then sand it down so the body is perfect. you'll be able to see and feel if any imperfections are still there during the sanding process. A light guide coat of a contrasting color is very helpful at this stage

One more coat of epoxy to act as a sealer

Top coats

by the way,, WHY LACQUER? I painted my dad's 58 Impala with lacquer at his request, and I wish I hadn't. It's better than Rattle can only because you can spray it thicker, but the upkeep is the same, because they are both still lacquer paint

Firebird Mess85

The Uro-Fill doesn't say it can be used over primer, have you used it that way? I could probably get the color off but I doubt I'll get the whole car perfectly to bare metal, this is why I'm goin nuts trying to figure out what is tough and will adhere properly if it's sprayed over existing paint or primer.

If I power sand the whole car, I may be able to do that and some bodo work in one day. This raises the question if there is anything to spray over the bondo to prevent mosture from absorbing before it's primed. Can I just spary epoxy primer over the bondo and use urethane primer over it and on the rest of the car when I get back to it?

Firebird Mess85

Laquer because that product has no mixing or reducing or drying window time...all of which I'm afraid I'd mess up because this is my first full car paint job.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

SPI epoxy primer can be used over or under filler. Not sure about every brand, stick to evercoat. I used the Z-grip.

Yes, if you are looking at leaving it in primer for any appreciable amount of time, epoxy over the bondo filler would be ideal for blocking moisture absorption

58mark

iTrader: (3)

don't get me wrong... lacquer is easy, almost foolproof, especially in solid colors (non metallic) What concerns me is that you will be frustrated with the amount of polishing it takes to keep it looking nice

if you are determined to shoot lacquer, Might I suggest looking into a better brand? Check out the TCP global line of lacquer paint. It's very affordable, and the only mixing you have to do is add the thinner, which you can buy in different temps depending on what time of year you are painting

duplicolor lacquer is the worst of the worst

Firebird Mess85

Even the stuff you shoot, not the rattle can stuff?

No I"m not dead set on laquer. I just don't want to botch it up.

Firebird Mess85

Can it be used over factory paint and adhere corectly?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

yes, I would say the duplicolor has below average long term gloss. It's the same stuff as the rattle can paint, but in a different container.

I also bet that if you compare what two sprayable gallons would cost (minimum for a car in lacquer) you would come out a lot cheaper getting a kit from TCP

here's a link... the picture is wrong.. it comes with two one gallon containers
http://www.tcpglobal.com/restoration...P+AL1901-KIT-S

if the duplicolor comes in quarts, how much would 8 quarts cost?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

oh yes, epoxy primer sticks to everything. sand and clean it first though

one thing epoxy does NOT do it hide imperfections. don't expect it to hide a line where the clear coat is chipped or came loose. you have to sand those down

Firebird Mess85

Guessing this is why you said to use the sandable primer as a between coat? Will the sandable primer build up and and cover some imprefections?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I've painted 2 cars with Lacquer from a gun, sprayed an entire car with rattle can, and also painted and prepped an entire car with modern paints. I'm probably the only one on the board that can say that.

Spray gun lacquer is EASY, if you mess it up, you just wait for it to dry, sand it smooth, and buff. the only trick is getting it thick enough to cover your mistakes with sanding. it's almost impossible to do badly, unless you try to shoot it with metallic paint

Base coat paint is much easier when using metallics, but you do have things like recoat windows, clear coat, ect to deal with. but the long term gloss and care is matchless

rattle can... unless you are touching up a small spot on a car in a factory car that is already lacquer, I wouldn't even think about it. Remember, I've been there, done that

58mark

iTrader: (3)

yes, but only moderately. the bondo type filler is still an important step for all but the smallest of imperfections. Don't try to fill a dent with the stuff

Firebird Mess85

Well you right, the stuff from tcp is only $10 more than 4 quarts of dupli-color. I do want a gloss black and I'm going to add silver flake so would you still recomend that tcp laquer?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

i've never done silver flake, but if it's like a metallic you will need some practice to get it to come out evenly. it also has a chance of tiger striping when you sand it, because of the silver settling in the bottom of a layer. If you are spraying anything like a metallic in a single stage paint, you have to spray lighter coats to prevent settling.

on the price, remember you can't compare the TCP price to 4 quarts of duplicolor. you have to compare it to 8 quarts. the TCP kit makes 2 gallons of sprayable paint, but 4 quarts of duplicolor is only one gallon, because it's premixed and thinned. Lacquer paint is thinned at a 1:1 ratio, which means you need one gallon of thinner for one gallon of paint

58mark

iTrader: (3)

i'm looking that this page, and they say it MUST be clear coated. I've never seen that in a lacquer paint before, but maybe it's because duplicolor has such terrible gloss.

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/psFinishSystem/

clear would solve the tiger striping problem, but it raises a new issue with touchups, and sanding. you have to get it thick enough that when you are sanding out imperfections, you don't go through to the base coat

Bottom line, unless you are shooting a solid color paint, don't use lacquer.

Firebird Mess85

Sorry to be bothersome but seeing as you have the experience it's extremely helpful. If I overcome my fears of mixing and do a basecoat clearcoat what do you recomend for a metalic black basecoat?

58mark

iTrader: (3)

depends on your budget... you could add a silver flake to any basecoat (like prospray) or you could get a black metallic like Kirker BLACK SAPPHIRE METALLIC

http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/lvbcolorchart.html

whatever basecoat you end up using, get SPI clear. it's amazing, and very easy to use.

no matter what you end up spraying, don't forget to protect your lungs. ESPECIALLY with BC/CC. I made a stupid mistake while painting my car last summer that I thought was going to hound me the rest of my life. I've recovered for the most part, but it still feel it when I get just a little sick. I took off my spraying mask between coats while still in the garage. I wasn't thinking about the particles of paint still in the air after I was done spraying... nasty stuff. I was sick for a month

Firebird Mess85

Just found out I don't have a basecoat clearcoat on the car now after decoding, it's enamel.

I know not to spray lacquer over enamel but I also know there's no way I'm sanding this car to bare metal. The guy at the automotive paint store told me not to use epoxy prime as the solvent will seep through. He recommended urethane primer. That's a fine and dandy but is a lacquer paint still going to react badly with the original enamel if I do this?

Also I was always assuming I had a BC / CC paint and had to sand it down to primer. Does the original enamel require being sanded down a lot or just lightly with 220 grit and then prime?

blakecharles

dude, just get a hvlp turbine kit... THE GUN MAKES IT'S OWN AIR, NO COMPRESSOR NEEDED.

Harbor Freight has one for $100. Then buy some cheap tractor paint like I did, on $54. Painted my whole car this way.

Firebird Mess85

I already have the turbine and gun etc. I started sanding and I'm just very confused on how far to sand down? Some info says bare metal and others say just scuff if it's the original paint. I'm definitely not using the lacquer and the original paint is enamel.

Please help before I screw this up. Most the car is sanded and it's down to bare metal in spots and primer in some spots. It's a bit harder to sand down to primer or bare metal than I thought, possibly because of the enamel? I can't find any reliable info if the primer will adhere to the original emamel.


This is what I've got done so far. Pics are at the link
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f6.../paint%20prep/

86blackbetty

iTrader: (2)

If you have bare metal spots then your will have highs and lows in the paint...

Heres mine 1 year later. This is rolled on

86blackbetty

iTrader: (2)

It looks good reminds me of how mine looked when i started to think WTH im i doing lol

Firebird Mess85

Beautiful car man! Thats what I'm going for. I know I'm going to have to fill in the low spots where theres bare metal. Did you take yours all the way down to metal or just lightly sand the original paint and go over it?

haps

iTrader: (4)

Hard to tell from the pics. If it was faded, cracking or peeling, it needs to be stripped to at least the primer. Otherwise, as long as it's all sanded WELL...prime it.

white gold 88

Etch prime or wash the bare spots then prime and block sand to remove high and low spots. No real need to sand off all of the primer if it isn't damaged or peeling. Be sure not to polish bare metal with wore out paper. Whatever you use will need scratches to stick to, even epoxy. Check with your paint supplier for his recomendations for his product. Practice your painting some on old part would help. Good luck with it.

86blackbetty

iTrader: (2)

This was my first time ever so i had limited knowledge. Ive since taken a auto body course and now know how to use filler and remove my dents..i painted over any little dings...here is a pic you can tell i sanded to the metal near the rear fender well... I used filler primer ...wouldve been better to use a body filler...but still looks good....Then i just rattle canned the primer and rolled the paint..the goal this summer is to get out all the little dings

haps

iTrader: (4)

I hope you learned how to properly strip panels cause you'll need to do that soon.

86blackbetty

iTrader: (2)

why do you say that? Cause you believe its hard to remove the paint of it once your ready for a real paint job... we all know this is temporary. stripping this paint is not difficult at all. Anyone who says that is lazy or has never tried it.

Firebird mess i leave u with this picture. It depends on you and how well u want it to come out.

haps

iTrader: (4)

Rolled paint over rattle-canned primer. Won't last long and you won't be able to put a decent job over it unless you strip that inferior stuff off.