OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

As the discussion of electric cars that was locked due to being off topic illustrates, there are some people here who would like to discuss things other than cars with their fellow TGO members.

A simple question, yes or no, should TGO consider having an off topic subforum?

Here is a re post of Vader's post that begat this Poll;

"This thread has turned non-technical after only a few posts. While there is some good technical (non-automotive), economic, and policy discussion posted here, it has strayed from the realm of ThirdGen or automotive tech talk.

We do not have an appropriate "Off Topic" of "Non-Automotive Technical" forum, so there is nowhere to move the thread within the site. While I might heartily agree with many of the points stated here, there is little choice but to close this before it pulls the discussion too far off the rails.

Perhaps we could petition the site administration to add a forum for this kind of discussion to see if there is any interest in hosting such a forum. It could be both entertaining and educational to see more members' comments on a multitude of topics not specific to ThirdGen F-bodies."

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Ive said this for a long time and it's probably why people are on fb asking the same questions daily over and over more than here.

I do see the other side of the coin to. Itll be a lot more bs to deal with

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

The real question is can you even find someone crazy enough to volunteer to moderate a sub forum like that.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I voted No. I don't think it's helpful to search for info about a PROM burner and end up with the top hit being an off-topic thread about inappropriate prom dresses.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

probably not a good thing, there’s enough off topic and dead thread’s .

JT

iTrader: (1)

We usually don't do things based on a poll and I wasn't going to get into the topic without seeing some more responses. But I believe something should be made clear, based on your statement above, as it can help the direction. I'm almost certain there isn't going to be any section added that would allow any discussion of inappropriate prom dresses. That's not what this is about. If I'm mistaken, and that's what this poll is suggesting we allow, then we might as well stop this.

The thread that initiated this poll, by a member, was regarding EVs and the (mostly) technical discussions related.

battmann

iTrader: (9)

Unfortunately when you have an off topic section anything can get posted & discussed / commented on. As someone already mentioned, a section like this will only be as good as the moderator in charge of herding the cats.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

vinny R

I don't think an "anything goes" subforum would be good where you could just start a thread about the weather. I do think a "related topic" or "off topic" sub forum might. A place to move the thread if it goes in a non technical or non 3rd gen specific. I was part of a thread about the government cancelling of long tube headers for our and other cars. This went way off topic and I am surprised it did not get shut down under the current guidelines, maybe it has been. I myself don't think it would hurt to have a place to move these threads to. Both threads seemed for the most part to stay clean, and if it doesn't it gets shut down like all the others. Just my

StevenK

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely not, this is a car forum for thirdgen related discussions. Keep your random thoughts to the facespaces and tweeter sites.

ironwill

Having been a long-term moderator on another once very large non-automotive forum (19 million + registered members) and having seen what happened to that site from expansion of off-topic discussion, I have to vote, 'no,' We have a very laid-back, friendly, 'everybody-gets-along' site here, but I can guarantee that it wouldn't remain that way if members are allowed to discuss other topics. A sizeable percentage of members would leave the site (either on their own or due to being banned), subsequently damaging site traffic---and the site's advertising revenue. Again, I've seen it happen elsewhere and don't want to see the same thing happen here.

'Forum' traffic has greatly decreased all across the internet, many such forum sites having either long-disappeared or currently barely hanging on by a thread. This one remains only because site ownership has realized that the way to keep it healthy is to keep it on-topic.

kestell123

If you think an off topic sub would be a good idea please go to the corvette forum and check out theirs. Crazy is an under statement . But on the other hand sane poeple can simply not go there.

skinny z

Tech: Yes.
Sex, religion, politics: No.
Prom dresses: Maybe.

tavert91

iTrader: (1)

I'M NOT A FAN OF "OFF TOPIC" POSTING. I think we should stay focused on the 3rd Gen cars and not broaden the scope. The site, as is, has provided me with an enormous amount of knowledge that takes advantage of the community we have built up about our specific cars. I would like to keep it and let others do the same for their specific vehicles.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

First thread I would make is about Trunk Monkey. That just never gets old.

skinny z

That video Mr Q, I will pass on to my grandkittens.

skinny z

There is something about this that stands out.
If an alternate forum is established, those of us who choose to can simply decide not to go there. If thread goes off topic and is banished to the off-topic land...see ya later.
Freedom is choice.
Is that off-topic?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Check that post again, I pointed out GM was building a new V-8 engine.
Where it went after that I had nothing to do with.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

the only negative i can see to an off topic forum is possibly adding more stuff into your search results.... but you can usually narrow down those too if need be. i was interested in the electric car topic that popped up and would have read more if it had continued. if you don't like off topic stuff, it seems you could just stay out of that forum and be happy.
BTW, i would also add that off topic forums do not kill message boards. other forms of social media did. yellowbullet's off topic forum was huuuuge and the only thing that put the brakes on that was when social media really ramped up.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yellowbullet is dirty.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

AND I"M NOT A FAN OF SHOUTING WITH ALL CAPS.....

Please remember, we're all supposed to be adults here, and a simple question such as whether an off topic subforum would be a good fit or not really shouldn't give rise to shouting at each other

Skinny z has made an excellent point here, I've never, not once, seen any subforum on any website, this one or any other, where participation is mandatory.

If someone doesn't like or want to participate in any conversation, fine, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads of interest. Now if I'm not "forcing" anyone to participate in any one particular thread, why should anyone whose not interested in a conversation feel the need to attempt to control what other people may want to discuss?

When I watch TV, if I don't like what's on, I change the channel. I do not attempt to control what the TV station chooses to broadcast. It's called "Live & let live" ........

JT

iTrader: (1)

The real concern is not with that. Instead, it's when some people have arguments or debates in an off-topic area and they allow it to bleed into the technical sections. So while members are free not to participate or view the section, the section can "invite" issues to spill out.

This thread is actually a perfect and recent example. Just today I closed a thread after responding to someone that was self-promoting their business under a 3rd party. They came to this thread, likely because my last post was made in this thread, and they posted their rant that had nothing to do with this thread. Crazy people will do that regardless of an off-topic section or not. However, it may increase the frequency if an off-topic section were part of the community. I'm considering the feedback from both sides but I want to reiterate that a technical off-topic section is really more possible than an anything goes section.

And, Don, I understand what your post was about. Your thread title was "All electric by 2035" and so, yes, it sparked the EV topic that I referenced.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Hi JT, First off, I would like to thank you for allowing this discussion to be had here, I really do appreciate the fact that your open to talking about this. I would personally volunteer to moderate an off topic subforum here, and would quell any unrest the minute it appeared. I would not want the three taboo topics Skinnyz mentioned, Politics, Sex, or Religion to be allowed, as those topics do always bring out the worst in people. My vision for an off topic subforum here would be a friendly place where people could discuss their hobbies, other cars beyond third gens, general life topics/experiences, that sort of thing.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

PS, I have given almost every post here a "like", because whether or not we agree on this talking point, I do appreciate everyone's participation. Talking things out is how things get done. And if the guy who shouted at me with all caps wants to present his point without feeling the need to display anger, I'll give his post a "like" too

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Bingo. The kind of people that thrive in the off topic forums end up being unsavory members. All it does is attract trash.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

To be fair to our fellow members I gotta ask, do you think strangers who don't own third gen F bodies would sign up just to troll an obscure off topic subforum, or do you really think our fellow members would become "unsavory trash" just because they were able to discuss a few friendly side topics?

I really do think our fellow members are better than that, and, if perhaps things get heated, that's where a friendly but firm moderator (me) would set things straight......

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Come on, don't play that game of entrapment. But the truth of the matter is....

Yes! And many of them already have member accounts here, they just don't use it. Thirdgen.org this is not an obscure forum, many people know about it and even belong, they just prefer the rowdier forums. I know members by name that were run out of other forums and ended up here (using old accounts) looking for a place to occupy but they lost interest because we didn't have an outlet for their mouth.

Lack of opportunity helps with that.

You're a really nice guy, OrangeBird. Maybe so nice that you don't really know what some of us are capable of doing!

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I have no problem with the concept of an "off topic" area. That said, "off topic" can mean a lot of different things to different people. So I'm going to provide a few examples.

I'm also a member of a Mopar forum called Moparts. It's been around several decades. It is actually the first forum...the first ANYTHING...that I joined when we got internet access on a company computer terminal at work sometime back in the mid-late '90s. (I'm dating myself). Like this site, policy for a long time was NO OFF TOPIC. Eventually (at least 10 years ago I'd guess), they created an area for topics that were "Musclecar/Moparts Related Topics (activities, events, trivia)". Here's a sample of what's on that page right now. As you can see, what's allowed has grown beyond that original definition, but there is no politics, no prom dresses, no religion. It runs pretty well, with no more drama than can occasionally be found in any topic in any sub-forum here (racing, electronics, etc.).



Similarly, I'm a member of another 3rd gen forum...3rd gen. Chargers that is (1971-1974). A very narrow topic, and a very small forum. But those of us there like it. I joined as a member many years ago when a current member invited me, and I now own the forum after the previous owner passed away. We have "off topic" handled in a couple of ways. These were set up by previous ownership, and have served us well.



...and...




So in the case of TGO, on my Charger forum, the EV / New GM V8 story would have gone into the Gearhead's Garage, and been a welcome conversation as long as people kept it civil (no different than any other conversation on that forum or this one).

Have both sites had to warn, suspend and even eventually ban a few people who just absolutely refused to follow the rules? Yes. Is that any different than those same personalities when they have joined TGO and made a PITA out of themselves in a technical forum?

Now, TGO is a business. And they have different stds. and operational policies out of necessity. Probably the same for Moparts, though I do not know. My little Charger site is hosted free, and I have to follow the service providers rules. But when someone refuses to follow the our rules on our forum, and refuses to heed warnings about same, out the door they go. I'm no tough guy...I don't look for opportunities to do that. But when it has to happen for the good of the forum, so be it. Perhaps there may be an element of apples and oranges there. I do not know for sure.

In neither instance have we found that it "attracts" a bad element. Heated conversations on some of those third rail issues CAN bring out the worst in a few folks. That's why there are rules.

Don't sell yourselves short. We have a great membership here, most of whom I have a high regard for. Why would it be strange that I would also value the opinion of that same group where...for example...buying a lift, or a wrench, or a TV might be concerned? If you dig back in the MOPARTS "Stu Harmon General Forum", you will find that Stu was a member who was very outgoing, very social. He loved to post about his clubs activities, and host those people at his home. Stu installed garage doors for a living, and when I built my 26x36 shop and needed an opinion on the doors I was considering, who did I go to via that forum? Yes, to Stu, and he offered me some good tips and guidance. When Stu passed, the forum was renamed in his honor because members appreciated the value that off topic forum had added.

Today, when I want to post on TGO and find out how many forum members might be attending the Trans Am Nationals in Cincinnati, where do I put that? There is no home for a such a topic. The best fit among a bunch of poor choices is the Regional Boards. But which one do I post in? The show draws car from across the country, and from Canada for that matter. Do I re-post the same question in each region? Is it spam to do that, which then gets moderated down to one post? Without an off topic area of some type, that's hard to address (JT and I have discussed it). On my forum, there's an area for that.



I think that when done properly, these "off topic" areas add a lot of definition, clarity and viewership to the forums. And as pointed out, if you are absolutely NOT interested, then don't look.

I'm not too passionate about it either way, but I'd say give it a try.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I think your efforts are better spent creating a forum for restorations and projects. People that do projects and restorations create most the ongoing tech content, and there are lots of people buying these cars right now that are going to be doing projects.

I was here for many years before I realized some people are hiding their projects in the appearance forum. It's not intuitive.

Making a distinct forum for projects and restorations advertises that hey, we want to see your project and there are other people here that are interested and can help.

The key to keeping traffic at a forum is to be relevant. What's relevant today is people are buying these old cars and they want to know more about them (you got that covered with the history forum) and they want to fix and restore or modify them.

Get rid of all the useless stickies, especially the ones that say do a search before you post. Those are extremely off-putting, and entirely unnecessary. Many of our stickies are pointless and they take up space at the top of the screen.
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JT

iTrader: (1)

Isn't that more fitting with the Members Firebirds and Members Camaros section? I added those for CoTM content as well as a central place for sharing or building ThirdGens. In fact, sometimes we'll get a inquiry as to where to post their build. I direct them to those sections.

Much of the current layout was done 15+ years ago. I think the idea, at the time, was one would use each section (Audio for audio builds, Brake for brake upgrades, etc.). While that is organization, it did not allow a more overall progress. It also meant the builder had to make multiple threads, in different areas, for each topic.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

It wasn't intuitive to me, JT. My eyes see appearance and detailing which is not a topic matter I am interested in. I didn't even know there were builds hidden in there.

​​​​​​It's not until I started using the new posts search that I started landing in the appearance of detailing forum while following recent posts that looked interesting.

And speaking of relevant content.... We've all seen that buying and selling and values seems to be a big deal right now. Maybe it would be worthwhile to find a better way to be a hub where people want to go to buy and sell 3rd gens.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I had discussed, and I thought you were one of those I included, about moving the Members Firebirds and Members Camaros out of the Appearance section and stand as their own on the main index page. My hangup was the "tech-only" stance (nevermind the Regional section) and separating the Members Firebird/Camaros section away from where the CoTM was being held. Now since the CoTM is on some sort of pause, I guess that's resolved.

Regarding the Classifieds, not sure what you have for ideas. We have a program that integrates with the forum to act more like a Classifieds. The forums were never developed to act as a Classifieds. The program is used on some sites, like LS1Tech, but I did not install it on here due to a few concerns. Some of those concerns have been worked out.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

COTM is an activity, I've never believed it can stand on its own as a forum. I agree In terms of order and organization it makes sense that COTM winners list stay with members Camaros / Firebirds wherever that goes.

But here's the issue: The appearance forum is hardly about appearance anymore, it has pretty much turned into the social hub for the site. If you relocate COTM activity away from the social hub then I think it will be less active than now, possibly die altogether. Maybe that would change if more people were milling around members Firebirds Camaros but that's not the way it is today.

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vinny R

What about getting rid of or consolidating some of the "regional boards"? I just did a quick look and some have not seen activity for a couple years. Since this forum is "tech based" how do these fit in? Those boards are really a "social" board and have very little if anything to do with the "tech " part and when it is used for a technical issue other members will never find the info buried in one of these threads as they are regional, these seem to me to be very socially based. The Midwest board last post was a year ago and the thread is titled "Forums Dead? This to me would be a perfect place to reorganize and have a place for a CAR related forum with rules as Dave stated.

I agree with you JT about moving the Members cars to a stand alone. It makes sense. The stickies suck, someone mentioned getting rid of them or maybe they need going through and updating, I tried to use one and it was just too long to try to decipher what I was looking for. I agree with Qwik that COTM (what happened to it anyways) needs to stay in a sub forum.

We have a lot of great peeps on this site and a lot of great people running this site that I feel to have a place to move or post something indirectly related to 3rd gens would just be a +.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

There is also people frequenting and posting over there.
And, if you dont want your virgin mind to see dirty things, all you have to do is stay out of that one dirty forum. there are many other very good tech forums there.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Figured since I've been around awhile, I've earned putting in my two cents. I for one am against an off-topic forum/page/section, whatever you wanna call it. Before I explain my reasoning, let me be clear. I've seen discussions on TGO that I feel are valuable, and they've been locked too quickly (in my opinion), and I've seen others that have been allowed to go on too long. (wax residue) LOL! -but no matter how perfect the guidelines are, we're all human, and no one of us mods this forum as our full time job, so I have no issues acknowledging that no one is perfect, and things aren't always moderated exactly how I think they should be. It's all good.

My feelings are that the life expectancy and effectiveness of a tech forum such as TGO, is directly related to how strict it is at sticking to it's intended purpose.


"Social" media is a disaster. The more you let people just be people, the bigger the disaster. I've been on TGO for well over 20 years, and even a few years before my join date. Not sure why it shows '01. Anyhow. I'm a member of truck forums, 6th gen forums, corvette forums, BMW e46 forums, mountain bike forums, firearm forums, camping/hiking forums, grilling/smoking forums, etc. etc., and that's not including group pages on facebook. None are as old as TGO. None are as low on drama as TGO. None are even CLOSE to being as helpful when looking for tech help as TGO. -and none are as strict, and as limiting in their "off topic" discussion as TGO. You won't convince me that the length of time that TGO has endured, and how effective it as a technical resource isn't directly related to how strictly the "fluff" is weeded out. I've seen forum after forum die because of it. I vote NO NO NO.

Just my opinion

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I also wanted to say that while I'm completely against letting TGO turn into a social fluff forum there have definitely been some good ideas mentioned. The thirdgen community HAS changed over the years, obviously and there's nothing wrong with updates and refreshing TGO. A non thirdgen car forum? consolidating various regional or other rarely used forums. Without laying out a blueprint for that, I'm not against that at all. I'll also agree with Qwktrip about builds and restorations. I don't wanna say the current way is WRONG, or that I have a perfect solution. Just that I get what he's saying. Reorganizing really wouldn't be a bad idea I don't think. Heck, I mod the "photoshop" forum. In 2023, I don't know that we really need that forum! -But it's cool when I go to bars I can tell chicks that I'm a TGO mod, so I don't complain!

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

maybe not "off topic" but "related topics".

only posts relating to car culture are allowed. You can make a thread discussing the new corvette or your first ride in a tesla, you can't make a thread about football. that kind of thing.

battmann

iTrader: (9)

I agree with this post. Would be nice to have a place to show / talk about other cars & car projects I have going on, ask for advise about tools or setting up a workbench, etc…

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

yep, i’m very into tools and tool storage, just recently set up a tool cart with everything i need to work on my trans am since it’s not near my main tool box. another good thread idea would be “thirdgen tool must haves” but that doesn’t fit into any forum section

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Thank You QwkTrip, I appreciate your kind words. I do try my best to convey a friendly atmosphere in my posts, and I know that sometimes "friendly sarcasm" doesn't come across nearly as well in forum discussions as it does when a bunch of friends are sitting around shooting the breeze. I want it to be known to all that my idea of an appropriate off topic area for TGO would be exactly that, appropriate. Like TylerSteez and battmann posted, "Related Topics" would be a great theme for it, with perhaps other mechanical interests not particularly related to third gen F bodies ranging from things like vintage outboard motors and model trainsets, perhaps some photography or whatever other cool hobby someone wanted to post about, that sort of thing. And yes, even (friendly) discussions of electric cars would be allowed. Just a friendly way to get to know a bit more about the personal interests of our fellow third gen owners. In no way would I ever want to see any kind of negative material hosted, regardless of topic, and I would prune such threads promptly. Let's face it, the "Claybar Residue" thread really wasn't a shining moment for us, and yet still (minus that thread's OP) we have all continued to get along just fine in the time since that thread got closed.

Oh, and, as to what people are capable of doing, forum nastiness wise, believe it or not the absolute worst behavior I've ever seen was on a pair of RC model airplane forums

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I agree with the sentiment about it creating most of the ongoing content. Personally, it's one of my favorite parts of the forum. And I would agree the name is not intuitive. That said, when I joined, I went through each and every area of TGO, to learn my way around. I found that area right away as a result, and always visit it. Others didn't apply to me, or interest me, and I never go into them. I would "guess" that many new members do the same thing to learn their way around. But I would agree that a name modification / change could steer people there with greater ease. I don't know that it needs to "move".

While it's nice on rare occasion to see some folks from a certain region post something of common interest, those are some of the least used spaces on TGO IMO.

I don't think adding ONE forum/area (to the existing 61) for general discussion would lead to the transformation of TGO into a social fluff forum. But it's a nice turn-of-phrase.

That seems a reasonable compromise. Although I'd still like to see it a little broader (in for a penny, in for a pound). JT and the TGO mods have very generously allowed me to use my T/A's "build thread" as a place to discuss other things of interest to me. Shows I've attended or will be attending, a garage fire and it's far reaching effects on my efforts in the hobby, info about the Pontiac Oakland Club International (POCI) and it's local chapter that I'm involved in, photography (where my dated cell phone was referred to as a potato...now that was insulting! ). For those that have followed my efforts, it's been nice to hear their feedback. But I would still prefer a general area for such things to be shared to a broader audience (and I'd probably continue to post that content in my thread as they are all part of what's going on for my T/A and my life in the hobby).

So lots of dogfighting...people trying to shoot down each others ideas?



FYI...and the last time (maybe) that I'll mention another forum for comparison. Moparts does have an additional "off topic" forum introduced a few years back that is unmoderated. I can only guess as to the shenanigans that go on in there...I've never clicked on it. I consider it a bad idea, and would have not been in favor of it's creation (if someone had asked me ). But admittedly, it has not led to the demise of the forum.