89Formula3

Seems like it's only us.

Im a car nut I appreciate all cars but I prefer American be it GM, Ford or Dodge, I appreciate them all. I've noticed a lot of 80s cars finally getting respect especially Japanese 80s vehicles. I was surfing YouTube and came across some videos of folks hunting down 80s toyotas, Mazdas, datsuns etc. Almost all of the Cars were underpowered most making barely 100hp or less. Yet they were talking up the cars about there styling and looks "classics" they said. Those cars are fetching decent prices now. Got me thinking how It seems its only us thirdgen folks who bash our cars if they're not the "top of the line" model or have the most horsepower. I then came across another YT video of a white prestine base firebird v6 no gfx in beautiful condition and the car was selling for 4k yet you have these slower, ugly(some imo) Japanese cars going for double or triple that. Thinks it's time we start to appreciate our vehicles a bit more.

tajoe

iTrader: (1)

I concur 100%, especially comparing the imports. It's basically a "generation" thing. I grew up when big block 4 speed cars were king of the street, and imports didn't have a prayer. At least when it came to drag racing. Some of them have morphed into a respectable category, but give me American performance, ...just "because". But we all know "most" 80s, into 90s cars, were in serious need of attention performance wise. Can blame the government mandates, and elected officials for driving that, but with the advent of computer technology advancements, (OBD2), that has changed drastically. But with any of the older cars, performance orientated or not, if the car is super clean, or has some unique characteristic about it, there will be people interested. (Just that I can't never find them, when I'm selling)

89Formula3

I personally think any thirdgen be it firebird or Camaro v6 or v8 tpi tbi looks better than any 80s Japanese sports car that are demanding good money now. Heck even the v6 thirdgens are better performers than late 70s, 80s jdm products.

blackgloves

Like everything else in this world, price is set to what the customer is willing to pay. The white V6 car may be in great shape, but to the general public, there is very little demand for that car.

It should be noted that the 3rd gen fbody holds (or did) the record for most sales out of all the generations. The value plummeted when these cars were 15-20 years old. People were parting them out because they couldn't make over $1,000 for them when selling them as a completed car. Some were being sold at $500

There is also a stigma with these cars. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard "does your IROC have the factory ****** still intact" lol. They're looked at as ******* cars by so many. People driving them around with an off color door, and fender didn't do us any good back in the late 90s and early 2000s


Now days, they're becoming rare due to all the parting out treatment they received. So the value has gone up and it will only continue.

Keep what you have, be patient. If you can only afford one cheap-ish part a month to restore it, do just that. You'll get your money back and then some, one day.

I'm 42 years old.. when my daughter was in HS (she just graduated) kids in her school had no clue what my IROC was. One kid asked "is that the same car from Back to the Future"

They really are getting rare. Now onto 88mph and hoping the future looks bright with these cars

blackgloves

I didn't realize those two words were censored. Wow! The first word is the name of a hairstyle. It doesn't take a lot to figure that one out. The other is a type of person that wears said hairstyle

Cheers

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Joe, freedom of speech only applies to the Government not censoring your words, this being a privately owned website the owners can set any rules they want to and if we want to participate we're forced to comply. Of course since we aren't forced to participate, the decision is ours. As to the "mu..ll..et" word, it being censored has nothing to do with any political party, it's because that word caused more dustups and led to more banned members than one could imagine, so the admins chose to censor it.

tajoe

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I can see where this is going. OFN

89Formula3

I agree with most of what you said especially the stigma part but the same can be said for fox mustangs. You would see those trashed aswell with 4 different color panels and sold more than thidgens when new,, yet they have become highly desirable some fetching crazy numbers. Im also on mustangs forums and never really see them bash foxes heck even the 4 cylinders are getting respect due to simple swaps.

I just feel our thidgens should be alot more appreciated than what they are so far and It should start with us.

89Formula3

Again same can be said for those poorly built rattle boxes imports. I've had my fair share of Japanese commuters and they feel like tin cans on wheels. Yet they are becoming very appreciated. Have you ever felt the doors on 80s-90s Japanese cars? It's like aluminum foil. Lol

I feel it's stigma like the poster above mentioned but also might be standards. If something doesn't have big HP numbers, top of the line model or a 1 of 50 we don't appreciate it. To where as these jdm collectors seem to not just look at power but style, nostalgia, brand etc.

I've had several thridgens over the last 20 yrs and I'll never sell my 91 formula but over the years I've looked at these cars as "oh just another thirdgen" to "oh **** look at that thridgen you don't see em on the road anymore". A few days ago a coworker brought his 82 camaro plain Jane base model but it was pampered since he got it in the early 90s. The car was beautiful I didn't care that it didn't have a big ol v8, the car was mint clean and it stood out in a parking lot full of modern crap.

blackgloves

95% of automobiles built for US highways back in the 80s fall into that category. The problem is, the Camaro had the worst of the rattle issue. Everything in our cars was plastic, down to some of the screws, retainers etc. Plastic took over the auto industry in the 80s. GM took things a little too far back then

I absolutely love my 3rd gen, but there's no denying how badly they were built with plastic

89Formula3

I agree with you on that but have you driven in an 80s Honda or Toyota or Mazda? Plastic everywhere rattle squeak knocks non stop. Imo no better than a gm product of the time. Literally the doors on my old 87 nissan sentra could be dented with just the push of a finger.

89Formula3

Seems like we're our biggest fans and toughest critics.

blackgloves

I wouldn't say I'm a big critic of our cars. They're probably my favorite generation of Camaro and I'm a Camaro fan down to the core. Its them and the 70-73, that really get my blood flowing
All cars had plastic related issues back then. Vehicles were just being built very differently at that time and it rubbed the old heads the wrong way.
I remember we had an 80s Ford pickup. The only Ford my parents ever bought and the last. The doors felt and sounded hollow when closed. The front seat that folded to get to the rear felt like hard products wrapped in cheap material. You could feel and make out the shape of the frame in it. It was so cheap feeling

Our cars started getting the squeaking sounds from the dash very early on into ownership. That's one thing I remember.

In the early 90s, Americans began jumping on the foreign car bandwagon. It was believed that Hondas were far superior than American made cars. I think that played into what you're discussing. I was about 10-12 years old at the time and we never owned one, so I couldn't tell you. But you couldn't change anyone's mind back then about Hondas

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I disagree that Thirdgens were the least popular F-body. If you look at production numbers the 3rd gen is 2nd only to the 2nd gen, and BOTH the 2nd and 3rd gen F-bodies massively out-strip the production numbers of every other generation.

What did GM do wrong with the 3rd gen? Too many drivetrain options. When the average person rolled up next to a V8 3rd gen, and wanted to race, they had no idea that there were different V8s. All they know is they either smoked that V8 Camaro, or gave it a run for its money. They had no idea that they raced a 150hp TBI car and it wasn't the 5.7L TPI.

With the 4th gens, there was no question. Every V8 was the best V8. (Yes, I know there was the LT4 SS, but that's closer to the TTA in prod numbers). And then later they got the LS1, which basically took ford almost 10 years to match.

If every V8 3rd gen was the best of the year, and every single one of them ran low 14's in the late 80's, then they'd have much more street credit.

blackgloves

1984 was record production for Z28. Street cred has nothing to do with popularity. Most of Ford,, and Chevrolet sales come from the V6 optioned car (mustang/Camaro)

When the consumer is looking to buy a mustang or Camaro, its all about styling, safety, and then price. I sold cars once upon a time. Trust me on this one. The horse power war we fall into is a small category.

Now days when people are looking for something retro to build, they will consider styling, price/budget. As its already been stated, the 3rd gen is the least popular of the 6 generations. One of the things people do like about these cars when looking to build a car is that they're relatively light, and the LS swap is basically perfect.

Ask yourself this, why did Hawks expand to other generations and cars? my guess is that the market shrank considerably and the demand for parts on the others was substantial

89Formula3

yet you have 80s jdm cars with 100 hp or less out the factory running 19sec quarter miles being sought after and selling for double and triple what a faster v6 and even some v8 thirdgen sells for.

Th prices and demands of these 80s jdm cars show its not all about power anymore they've proven that, unfortunately a lot of thidgen fans haven't got the memo yet we'll continue to bash every thirdgen if it's not the top of the line model or rare firehawk.

89Formula3

Agree 100%

Komet

The plastics and vinyls of the 80's didn't fare well to the vicious greenhouse environment our cars put them through. The early cars had rattling doors and other nvh issues that people perceive as low build quality. GM was still clawing its way out of the malaise era in the early 80's, caught off guard by the oil crisis and high quality import cars flooding the market. They struggled to predict the engines that consumers would buy. While quite potent for its time, even the 5.7 TPI wasn't a real contender for a H/C/I swapped big block anything, and that technology was 15+ years old at the time (and much more affordable). So they're not "nice" or "fast", and they're more complicated to work on than the old cars, with less room for upgrades that don't play nice with computers. Then they got cheap, and neglected as the miles piled on. Now whatever's left is rising in value because it survived the bottoming out of the depreciation cycle. To answer the question: I think third gens get a bad rap because they're compared to other generations of f-bodies, new and old. The import cars of the era were more best-of-breed at the time, nothing made prior from their respective manufacturers were as good, so it's easier to put them on a pedestal because they were "the best" for a while. And maybe the third gen never really was, unless you're talking lateral g skidpad numbers, which is a nerdy statistic quickly forgotten because people only care about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

To really understand third gens in context of what it was like at the time, I highly recommend reading Camaro, The Third Generation by Michael Lamm. These cars had some very innovative technological achievements wrt mass scale manufacturing.

blackgloves

I'm sure all of you experience this too, but how often do you get a random stranger in a parking lot approach you? Its always the same "my uncle had one of these but it was red" "this car was so hot back when I was in high-school, everyone wanted one" "a kid in my neighborhood had a red one and I always wanted one"
They definitely bring nostalgia out of people from that era. I really think because there were so many available to buy at the bottom of their value cycle hurt the cars reputation. Far too many $500 cars were sitting in peoples yards. People that wanted them in the 80s but couldn't afford them were now driving them but they had multi colored panels and had "fat mag wheels" barf!

When you go to a car show, a 3rd gen is either really loved by some and or ignored by the rest of the crowd. There never seems to be a middle ground with them.

Your best bet if you wanna work on the cars reputation is youtube. Im sure most of you know the guy on YouTube
mu..ll.et fireball. His channel is great and his car is awesome. He has subscribers who submit videos of their cars for his viewing audience to see.. of course all of them are pretty top shelf. Ill probably submit one at some point myself

ironwill

Other than the occasional poster asking about swapping in a 5.0 Coyote engine, or someone asking about lowering his 3rd gen by completely removing the car's springs, this is a fairly sophisticated, knowledgeable---and also critical---group of Camaro owners posting on this particular site. As a result, the best, most-well-optioned 3rd gens will always get the nod.

As far as foreign cars go (Japanese?), there were a few hits among many misses back in the day (240Z, the Skyline, etc), but by and large, the vast majority of them were/are soulless grocery-getters, and not a single tear will be shed for any of them when they make their final trip to the crusher.

89Formula3

I agree with you about the Japanese grocery getters...yet you should see how much some of those cars are going for now. I recall you could pick those up 15-20 yrs ago for nothing but not anymore. They have gained a new level of respect by car enthusiast and it has nothing to do with power or quality, imo it has everything to do with nostalgia. That's why I can't understand why we bash our cars be it base models or low level v8s.

Kingtal0n

I Like thirdgen body style but its heavy.

What I like about OLD 80-90's Japanese cars is their weight and makeup often makes sense for V8 power.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...ce-inside.html

240sx is 2900lbs with a LS1 in it. It balanced 4-corner weights is better than with the original factory 4-cylinder.
They come factory with IRS differential capable of handling 800rwhp drag racing, slicks.
The Original suspension is well suited for handling, cornering, braking, launching, whatever. And there is no torque arm BS.

Its like easy mode. I respect anybody that can make a thirdgen handle and launch and all that... the Japanese cars do it for you.

ironwill

It's American car culture, meaning, by Americans, and for American cars with V8 engines, the more hp, the better. Olds started it in 1949 with their Rocket 88, and other than the hiccup in the '70s-mid '80s from EPA regs and greedy insurance companies, performance, up until a year or so ago, has always captured a big segment of the market---again, around V8s. It's just ingrained into every true gearhead's brain.

But there's a storm coming; ICE vehicles have already begun to be phased out by manufacturers. Add to that the general malaise of young people regarding their lack of interest in cars in general, even to the extent of not even having a drivers license, and the future of the aforementioned car culture is anyone's guess.

midias

I love my thirdgen but the build quality of these cars vs jap cars of a similar era is just garbage. I grew up on 80s jap cars because I could afford them. My 1988 accord was on par with a TBI or V6 camaro when I played on the street but at least 100% more reliable and the interior had 1/1000th of the rattles my friends thirdgens had. It also does not help that our cars have a stigma for low IQ modding from people who cant fix TPI or want to make to "old school" with a TH350. The stigma is no different than the 1990s civic stigma and the fart cannons everyone used.

Another reason that prices of thirdgens are lagging is because they had two awesome generations before that commanded big bucks. For Japanese 80s cars they are often the first or second generation and much more desirable from a collector value. But I see a lot of the same thing a unmolested integra or prelude is ungodly hard to find same with a decent thirdgen. Prices are going up as these cars become harder to find. You cant go buy 3 of them for 2K and build one decent car any more and hopefully as the young kids that loved them in the 80s are now in their 40s prices will go up.

89Formula3

Idk what kind of 80s jdm cars you were driving but I've owned a few and every single one of them rattled, squeaked like crazy and have you ever felt the doors, roof on an 80s Japanese car? Seriously they are tin cans on wheels, the thinest metal ever put on any vehicle. My thirdgens felt solid AF compared to any 80s early 90s Japanese car.

midias

My 86 accord, 88 Accord, 89 Camry, 88 Celica all had left rattles combined than any thirdgen I've ever been in. Better build quality too higher quality plastics and a lot less machine thread style screws holding everything together.

blackgloves

who do you see bashing our cars? I read on another website not long ago that we're seen as, head over heels crazy for our cars and will buy everything down to a bolt for them

I think it was on camaro5 in the 3rd or 4th gen section.

topduarte

iTrader: (8)

1990 Honda CRX with 12k original miles went for $40k today on BAT

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-honda-crx-33/

89Formula3

I've been here for over 15 yrs and I constantly see folks bash thirdgens that are not top of the line models. Again we're our biggest fans and toughest critics.

89Formula3

wow thats exactly what I'm talking about a 100hp cheaply made Japanese 80s car being appreciated. I've had two crx an 87 and 89 thing was as cheaply built as you can get yet here we are.

Ive seen base v6 thirdgens in prestine condition low miles and waaaay better looking than a crx barely go for 4k. Smh

89Formula3

Point I'm trying to make with this thread is simple we need to appreciate our cars more. Yes we all want and like Firehawks, TTAs, LB9s, L98s etc but at the end of the day a thirdgen be it v6, LB9 or L98 is still a firebird/camaro.

The jdm 80s collectors don't care if theyre cars came with a 75hp 1.2liter lawnmower engine they'll swap em or just leave em original and enjoy. We need to appreciate the car as a whole not just power. You can make anything go fast if it was really all about power.

Carlos89

Great approach, thanks. Gave me a different outlook.

blackgloves

month 1: steering wheel, and seat belt guide
month 2: new floor mats
month 3: side markers, and new bulbs/led
month 4: cover rear hatch plastic with carpet or material
month 5: coolant jug
month 6: Windshield wiper jug
Month 7: door seals

You get the pic. Good luck

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

My car is cool in the absence of other cool cars.
That's kind of the 3rd gen story in a nut shell.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Thanks, bud.

Fact is nobody cares about my car when it's just sitting in a parking lot. It's pretty clear to me that the looks alone aren't enough to move people's emotions. And emotions drive value.

It's not until I start my engine that everything changes and people get that, "Hell yeah! I approve, brother!" kind of look on their face or give me the head nod. My 3rd gen is a car that isn't appreciated unless you can experience it. There is pricing power but only if somebody took interest to really want my particular car, not Firebirds in general.

IROC will always have a strong following. It's got that NASCAR look and appeal about it. Truly one of the best looking cars GM ever made.

But hey, somebody has to rock the base model and I can!

irvan

iTrader: (1)

My car is just an old driver quality car but somebody always looks at it and comments on it (nicely) at the grocery store or gas station.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

And a 720 mile TTAsold for $59k.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...omments-anchor

midias

blackgloves

The Supra TT is highly sought out. Think limited edition Japanese Corvette

That ain't even apples to oranges

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Also produced in significantly LESS numbers than the corvette too.

blackgloves

I'll admit, I didn't think a TT Supra from that generation would pull that kinda dollar. Its probably the most sought out of all the generations, but that's crazy money.

It an awesome car that got a nice bump from Fast and the Furious. That movie was a game changer

Kingtal0n

In 2012 you could buy a right hand drive 6-speed 1995 Supra Twin Turbo for $6600~ at an auction in Japan with 180,000km
I drove one for a couple years back before they started cracking down on illegally imported grey market stuff, you could sell them for 40k 50k here in America

The 95-02 Supra (was made until 02 in Japan but only 98 here) weighs what a thirdgen weighs- around 3800lbs
They come factory 400rwhp roughly and capable around 440rwhp with factory turbochargers
A complete engine in 2012 with automatic transmission, 2jz-gte twin turbo could be had from Ebay for $1200
That 3.0L Engine from 95-02 is 700rwhp capable using a piggyback computer and reliable for 200,000 to 300,000 miles with the most basic upgrade, basically just a turbo, Injectors, and some way to control the large injector.


I was able to inspect around 500 of those 2jz-gte Supra engines imported from Japan from 2007 to 2012, install them into cars here, tune them using various ECU, haltech, aem, motec, power fc, safc, HKS F-conV. The engine weighs are much as an Iron V8, maybe more. The strength comes from it's girdle design, integrated pan support, thick everything. The bore and stroke are 'square' 86mmx86mm and has been copied by Nissan's sr20det which is a mini 2jz-gte engine with an aluminum block, 86x86, 4-cylinder, girdle, pan support, same combustion chambers and pistons too. The engine is legendary even more than the car, but both command high prices now to the point where I stopped using them in favor of the LS variants, 4.8/5.3L truck 02-07 versions which- SURPRISE internally very similar to a 2jz-gte engine , girdle & pan support, coil over plug, modern combustion chamber, oil system priority, etc... its almost like the truck engines are actually 2jz-gte copies and perhaps this explains why they also handle 800-1200rwhp with factory internals, given the two extra cylinders and added displacement to handle a bit more stress.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

In the late 90s I was choosing between buying a C4 Corvette or a Supra at the same price. I bought the Corvette. Damn.

Whitebird75

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents in here, as I carry a different perspective at the age of 27 than many of the more mature owners.

I don't think it's fair to compare a 4th gen TT 6-speed Supra to any Third Gen F-body and is better compared to the 1969 Z/28 Camaro or the '32 Ford Roadster. The reason why is that these cars represent a high water mark for a car craze that the later youth took advantage of during times of economic growth and was bookmarked by economic recessions. Starting with the '32 roadster, the cars that built the idea of Hot-rodding debuted three years following the start of the '29 stock market collapse and ended around 1942, just before the US entered WWII. Some of the popular cars of the era were the '33 *****'s Coupe, the '39 Mercury, and the posterchild made famous by Hot Rod Magazine, the 32 Ford. The 32 Ford really hit it stride post WWII, due to the G.I. Bill and the cars being about 15 years old. These cars are still loved by Early Baby Boomers and late silent Generation (or was loved by them as they are dwindling quickly).

Next is the Pony car era that took place from the early to mid 1960's to 1974 only to be ended by the two gas crisis of the 70's. This generation is unique as it is the only one that the youth could really participate in when the cars were new. I'm not going to spend much time as most people on this forum know the appeal of the Z/28 Camaros, the Charger R/T, and the Boss Mustangs. These cars tend to be beloved by late Baby Boomers and most of Generation X due to the stories passed down from the Baby Boomers about driving the cars in their youth. (notwithstanding the extent of exaggeration they gained over time). There is another uniqueness about the muscle care era, the double whammy of being sought after by distinct generations, the late Baby Boomers who are trying to buy back their youth, and the Gen Xer's who want to experience one of the greatest products from one of the wealthiest growth periods in American history.

Last is the 1990's assault of Japanese sports cars in the US. The assault started somewhere in the early to mid 90's and ended at 2000-2001 with the Tech stock crash of 2000-2001 and the fall of the Twin Towers. There are a few "Blue Chip" cars from this era, such as the 3000GT VR-4, RX-7, 300ZX, NSX, and the Supra. Of these cars, the TT 6-speed Supra stands above all as the literal poster child for the era. These cars appeal to the Gen Y generation (A.K.A Millennials) in the same faction as the muscle car era of the 30's-60's appealed to the Baby Boomers. Also these cars are twenty plus years old, and with the wealth of the Baby Boomers transferring to the Millennials, it shouldn't be a surprise that these cars are rising in value. These cars also have more technology than the muscle cars, but not enough to completely ruin the driving experience.

So where does this leave the Third Gen F-bodies? With no extreme economic downturn or any other huge factor, such as emissions requirements, to mark a stark end to a decade, only a dedicated portion of the Gen X owners seek out 80's pony cars. With a smaller pool of potential buyers with limited resources, prices of reference, low mile, high water mark cars will suffer; thus, a 12k mile 1987 IROC will likely trail the reference blue chip cars of an unrestored 1969 Z/28 or a 7k Mile 1995 TT manual Supra. While this might sound negative, it can also be a positive, as time goes on. Third Gens, while not seeing prices from a decade ago, will still remain attainable to the average person, not just wealthy car collectors.

89Formula3

It's only thirdgen guys. I don't see the foxbody guys bash their cars. Foxbody mustangs especially the lx v8 coupes in original condition are bringing big dollars noawdays and are very sought after. Heck even 4 cylinder fox body's are getting respect.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Obviously this problem you've identified needs great leadership to solve it. Set the example everybody should follow by giving me $80,000 for my Firebird. And be proud that you did your part to change the world for the better....

89Formula3

problem solved. 👍

Lol

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yeah! Not such a good idea when it's your own money, huh?

Affordable = more fun everybody.

The words "go up in value" causes people confusion like it's something they want. Use the words "go up in cost" and suddenly it's a whole different conversation. And everybody is more wealthy when things are affordable.

89Formula3

??
I don't think you got my point bud.. I'm not necessarily saying our cars should be worth crazy money or someone should pay outrageous numbers, sure maybe down the road it may come a point but not as long as the thirdgen community bashes the cars more than the generalpublic. I'm talking about the respect or lack of that a lot of folks here give thirdgens in general.

example if the car doesn't come with a 350, 305tpi, 5 spd etc it's "crap" "not worth anything".

Yet you have the fox guys(I own two myself)and these old school jdm fans going crazy over a grocery getters with 89hp. Or a clean body 4 cylinder fox. We need to appreciate our cars more instead of always bashing them. You even see the old baby boomrs giving v6 pony cars and chevelles respect nowadays.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

It's a lot about condition. The threads I see where people are getting that kind of feedback is because the car is in poor condition. If the car has good bones then it might be interesting to a builder that can make it what they want, but it is not interesting to a turn-key buyer that wants to hand over cash and be instantly transformed into Joe Cool. And keep in mind a sub-$10K car today probably doubled in value from a few years ago, so percentage wise it has risen quite a lot.

3rd gens are from an era where performance cars are a sticker package and a few extra buttons on the dash. Later in the generation there actually were some trim levels released that had legit higher performance with much tighter suspensions, better tires, and faster. Those are the cars that people are clamoring over and that is driving up the values on those particular cars.

As for the other varieties of 3rd gens, the price kind of comes down to condition, people's emotions, and how far up the Joe Cool scale a turn-key buyer can get with one purchase. Some people will pay a lot of money for a car with the Joe Cool factor cranked up high.