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look forward to your results. I do tend to agree roller lifter would be a nice upgraded. might even allow the smaller nicer diving cam with the same over all power. but cams have gotten crazy expensive. seems everything is a 1000$ these days when a cam swap was 200 when you started this thread haha.
Just got back from the machine shop I had check out the springs. They said they are 150lbs closed and 350 open @.550 lift. I am going to assume these are too strong for this flat tappet setup?
So looking back at this comment of the springs that came in the heads back when I originally purchased them. I found these old springs at my dads. They are double springs. Not sure install height from when they were installed. I could possibly throw one in and check. Depending on install height, I wonder if they would be roller appropriate?
Nothing really new to update on. Block is at the machine shop waiting to get inspected along with the rotating assembly balancing. They said 2 weeks till they could even take a look at it all so still at least another week till I hear something. Fingers crossed all else looks good. I've just been piddling on the car in the evenings cleaning up/fixing some wiring harnesses and doing some body work. Thinking I might get it in some epoxy primer till I can get it painted next fall/winter. Will see what ends up happening with the rest of the motor work.
Talked with the machine shop. All looks good thankfully. Getting a light hone, and some crank journal polishing. Then balancing the rotating assembly with the new rods. Should have it all back next week. Guess that means I need to make up my mind on cam selection...
I have the block and rotating assembly from the machine shop. Making my orders for misc parts to assemble the longblock. This includes the new retro roller cam setup and everything for that. Went with the XFI 280 retro roller setup, figured it would be money well spent for less worry of lobe issues. Between the holidays and a vacation second week of January coming up I probably won't get much wrench time till mid January.
You're doing a lot better than I am with my project/thread! It's cool to read a thread, your thread, where something is actually happening, continuing, progressing. Thanks for the updates.
You're doing a lot better than I am with my project/thread! It's cool to read a thread, your thread, where something is actually happening, continuing, progressing. Thanks for the updates.
I'm glad someone is enjoying the updates...I updated my wife and she is not happy with the budget tripling
I do enjoy updates. To me, posts that seem like small progress are really representative of a big effort and commitment. It's not just buying the cam; it's committing to the cost, figuring a way to make it "OK" with the wife/family situation, packaging it into the rest of the costs and project....then pealing time out of "regular life", to actually work on any aspect of it. It's very different than when we were single. So, I love the commitment to the car/hobby, and I love the updates because of what they represent, and that things are still moving forward.
It's hard to get wives "on board". I'm lucky that my wife loves to drive the cars....over time, she kind of forgets how fun the cars are, she'll give me grief about car money, but then she'll drive one of the cars and re-realizes that it's awesome and "we need to keep these/this". Yeah....good idea!
Cam will be worth it. :thumbs:
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; 12-19-2023 at 10:08 AM.
I do enjoy updates. To me, posts that seem like small progress are really representative of a big effort and commitment. It's not just buying the cam; it's committing to the cost, figuring a way to make it "OK" with the wife/family situation, packaging it into the rest of the costs and project....then pealing time out of "regular life", to actually work on any aspect of it. It's very different than when we were single. So, I love the commitment to the car/hobby, and I love the updates because of what they represent, and that things are still moving forward.
It's hard to get wives "on board". I'm lucky that my wife loves to drive the cars....over time, she kind of forgets how fun the cars are, she'll give me grief about car money, but then she'll drive one of the cars and re-realizes that it's awesome and "we need to keep these/this". Yeah....good idea!
Cam will be worth it. :thumbs:
Appreciate the words. My wife has no interest in driving the TA mainly due to it being a stick shift. But I think she will enjoy tagging along on drives once its "done". We live about 20 mins from town so it will be a nice fair weather driver for us running errands or going to dinner on the weekends. I definitely plan to tame the exhaust at some point, anymore even I think it is a bit too much so you can imagine how she feels about it
I've been lazy lately. Between the holidays and a week long vacation to warmth I have had so much going on that my will to work out in the garage has been MIA. Was hoping to get out there this weekend and get some forward progress going but the temps are going to be low teens all weekend now. Don't feel like cranking the space heater up for half the day just to get garage temps warm enough for a few hours of work each day. Maybe next week when it warms up some I will get out there...
Major To Do Items:
Swap valve springs for roller springs
Install Heads
Install Lifters/Stems/Rockers
Install Lower Intake
Drop Engine In
Button Up Intake/Accesories/Electrical/Etc.
Install Transmission With New UMI Adjustable Torque Arm
Install Headers/YPipe
Address WBO2 wiring (have new harness)
Drain Fuel (4 years old)
Misc. Pre-Start Odds/Ends
Decide on 1st Start Tune Adjustments
Cross Fingers & Hit Key
I'm sure there are bits I am missing/blanking on. But sure seems longer written out then it was in my head.
And that just gets me to a stage of being able to move it out of the garage as needed for the quickly approaching wall of preseason jet ski work.
Well it looks like I need to order springs. Long story short the springs I found that I was thinking came from these heads and had tested way up in the beginning of this thread either aren't what I thought they were or I was handed the wrong springs in a box from that shop. They are 1.5 outside dia. My Performer RPM heads are max 1.46 dia they definitely don't fit in the heads.
That being said, I am looking at PAC 1218 beehives. They show max lift .600 with 130@1.8 and 318 @ 1.2. I've also looked at the PAC 1219 which are slightly more pressures with max lift at .625 with 135@1.8 and 348@1.175. I've seen others mention AFR 8019 upgrade springs. Not sure if those will be "too much" or not though.
My new springs have arrived. I am still waiting on one item however. The spring locators. I ordered them early last week with two other items from Summit Racing. Got a shipping notification then an email saying the locators were on backorder till March even though the item showed in stock when I placed the order. Called the manufacture directly and they said they had thousands in stock. So called Summit and informed them I either wanted to cancel that item to get it ordered directly from manufactured. They said they could set it up as a drop ship. This was on Friday the 2nd and still no word on whether or not it has shipped...
What you end up going with? Either of the beehives should work. Pac is a good spring
Ended up with AFR 8017. This being a larger displacement motor and TPI style intake I know it isn't going to spin to the moon. I spoke with AFR and they agreed they will be good for my application. Their tech recommended tightening installed height just a hair to 1.77 to get a little bit more pressure, but not required.
I've mocked up the springs without the locators and I should end up with a perfect 1.8 install height once I have the locators in place without any additional shims. I have some shims laying around that I might see if I can come up with 1.77 on all 16.
Probably will work fine. I always liked abit more pressure in xfi lobes if turning 6200+. 8017 should do ok. I typically shim to get to within .050-.070 of coil bind height at max lift and let that be the resulting install height and seat pressure
Yeah I have read a lot of people revving higher than 6000 upgraded to the 8019s. I think I will be running out of air before I hit 6000 rpm with this setup so wasn't too concerned with knowing that is a downside to my spring selection. It will probably take a while for me to get the ***** to rev it anywhere near that high anyways
The specs have always been odd to me on these springs. The coil bind height is 1.050. Max lift shows .600". With 0.050 clearance that comes to a 1.700 install height. They are spec'd for a 1.800 install height. My only thought is the pressures just aren't up to snuff for much more than that lift for any decent kind of rpm.
If I use 1.050+0.074(high end clearance)+0.576(max lift) I come out with 1.700 install height. This would increase my seat pressure to 171lbs and a open pressure of 378lbs.
If I use their techs recommended 1.77 install height I have seat 146lbs and open 353lbs.
If I use spec numbers of 1.8 install height I have seat 135lbs and open 342lbs.
Thinking I might use the middle number and call it good. For reference, 8019s would net me seat 155lbs and open 414lbs set to spec 1.8 install height.
Yeah it all depends how what they are using as recommended clearance or recommended application. Afr’s chart has that spring at 140 seat at 1.81” 356 at 1.21”, .600 recommended but bind is 1.00”. So theoretically you can run closer to .760 on it if the pressures were sufficient. Most likely they wouldnt be so they recommend something else. Also note advertised bind height may not be what it actually measures in real life.
for you it probably wont matter the bind height clearance. If the specs are accurate 1.77 gets you in the 150’s seat. That’s perfect imo. Allows for some loss due to heat cycling wear and tear. Springs can lose a few lbs after some use, so you’ll be ok
Interesting, I guess Summit has some discrepancies to their specs for the springs. Sounds like I am heading in the right direction however. Now if only I could get the dang spring locators to ship...probably going to give AFR a call today to see what the deal is. At this stage I am half tempted just to order the locators from AFR to get them shipped today and then return the set from Summit whenever they finally make it.
Got an email saying they will be shipping tomorrow. Which sucks, I have a 3 day weekend this weekend so could've got a decent bit done if they had shown up this week. Good news is I have another 3 day weekend the following weekend. I might try and still do some odds and ends this weekend on the car. Still lots to do aside from the engine work.
Well slow progress is happening but still making progress. Dropped the motor in and will be getting the transmission installed this evening with the help of a buddy.
Got held up with valve train parts. Using these springs in Edelbrock Performer RPM heads requires a hodgepodge of parts. Ended up having to order different valve seals because the new Edelbrock ones were too large diameter. Then the recommended comp pushrods weren't the right length. I shouldn't have even ordered those and just waited to measure them. Thankfully I was able to find my length checker at my fathers place in one of his tool boxes. The new pushrods came in last night so got the valvetrain buttoned up. Also ended up having to order a new starter. The old cheap mini-starter was not up to the task of turning this fresh motor over when I tested it. So to say this whole project has snowballed both in complication and financially would be the understatement of the year...
Transmission is in. No pictures but went in without too much fuss, thankful for a buddy with a nice transmission jack.
I believe I have everything on hand that I need to fully reassemble atleast to a point of test firing it. So in theory by the end of the weekend I could possibly do so...we all know that something will pop up however so not getting my hopes up too much on that happening. I've got a customer ski getting dropped off tonight for a quick steering cable install and preseason prep, but that shouldn't take up too much of my time tomorrow.
Pretty successful weekend with no major hiccups. Lacking a few things still yet to test fire but pretty close.There are a few electrical items I am going to replace on the TPI harness. The TPS connector has a ruined pin, the CTS sensor locking tab is missing so that connector won't stay in place, and my knock sensor connector wire was melted. I also really need to drain the fuel tank and get fresh fuel in it. Aside from those it is just a matter of finishing up reassembly. Oriellys has the electrical bits on the way with the last of them in Wednesday. In the meantime I will get the fuel drained and as much of the reassembly done as I can tonight and tomorrow night.
Had some great weather yesterday. Opened up the doors on the garage to let some fresh air and sunshine in while I worked.
What is odd is I didn't touch that fitting during removal. So at the very least I haven't experienced a leak or any issues with that joint (or any of the others) since install in 2013. But I will definitely check that out. I'm not super happy with the extra length I've had with those hoses so might shorten them up some.
Worked more on it last night. Got the old fuel drained out of the tank and will get some good non-ethanol premium fuel for it. Over the weekend I had done some repairs to the HVAC Blower Box that had cracks. Painted it last night, replaced the foam seal with some new high density foam, and reinstalled it. I always had issues with the coolant gauge sensor wire and header heat getting to the wire so I moved it to one of the three available ports on the intake by the thermostat. The other two ports have the CTS and then a 200* turn on 185* turn off fan switch that I am trying out to activate the high speed on my Mark VIII fan. The AC will also trigger the high speed of the fan with the low speed being triggered by the ECM.
Need to grab a few misc things tonight on my way home from work. Fuel filter and a thermostat housing gasket. Tomorrow the last of the electrical connectors I ordered will be at Oreillys so I should be able to test fire tomorrow evening. Will try and button up everything else this evening to prepare for that.
Started it up last night for the first time with no major fuss. Prior to cranking I primed the fuel system and found a leak at a injector so had to remove the plenum to get that taken care of. Ended up just being an slightly damaged oring. Once reassembled I tried cranking it over a couple times to no avail. Grabbed some go-go juice in a can and it lit off but would die once it burned off. Knowing I wasn't getting fuel I contemplated it for a second before remembering I had removed some fuses during my underdash wiring clean up (injector power fuses). Threw those back in and cranked it over with it starting quickly and going straight to about 1500 rpm. Let it run for a good minute or so while checking for leaks, watching oil pressure and listening for any weirdness. Shut it down and me and my wife (who had joined me in the garage during this) both couldn't believe how smooth it sounded. For her to notice it really says something!
After the initial start I checked everything over and started it up again to lower the idle. I quickly noticed I had mistakenly forgot to hook back up the brake booster vacuum hose. I also fiddled with my WB to figure out why it wasn't reading on the digital gauge, and pulled it out of the exhaust to do a free air calibration. After that I started it one final time to get a rough idea of where idle AFR was sitting which was 11.5-12. I called it a night there as it was getting late and I didn't want to annoy any neighbors with the noise. While reinstalling my WB I noticed two oil drips that appeared to be coming from oil pan gasket. I'm using that one piece Fel-Pro gasket so that was a little disappointing to see. It wasn't at the front/rear crank seal area at least. I retorqued the bolts, hopefully that solves it...
My plan tonight is to button up my fan wiring so that I can run it long enough to fully get it to temp. I also need to wire up the WB to the EBL ECM to be able to datalog my AFR. Just now I created a tune with 10% taken out of fueling, but while trying to get to sleep last night I realized I hadn't hooked up my AFPR to vacuum so my idle fuel pressure was higher than it should be. That will certainly help get my AFR down some at idle as well. I will set my initial timing too tonight, I suspect it was pretty close given how quickly it starts.
All in all it was a exciting evening and I am anxiously awaiting getting back to it tonight.
Oil leak - Double check the pcv to make sure it is working properly. Could be getting a little blow by until the rings seat, which should be soon after start up.
Oil leak - Double check the pcv to make sure it is working properly. Could be getting a little blow by until the rings seat, which should be soon after start up.
Good thought. Though I had the other sides valve cover grommet open so it wouldn't of had any pressure buildup in the crankcase.
I ran it a good bit last night and didn't notice anymore leaks so hopefully it was just a matter of retorquing those bolts. I'll type up an update post from last night here in a bit.
Last night I was able to get the initial spark set to match my tunes 8* initial SA. With the fan wired up I let it get to temp and burp the air out of cooling system. Topped radiator off and starting playing with my idle fueling. I had created a group of tunes in 10% reductions in my VE tables, all the way up to a 60% reduction. Shockingly it stayed running when I switched to that tune but didn't like it. KPa was pretty high, IAC struggling to bring RPMs up and AFR practically maxed at 20. It seemed to like my 20% reduction tune the most with AFR in the 15 range but I will certainly be spending more time with it once it is back on all 4s and drivable so I can start some VE Learns. I know the 7* overlap will fool my WB a little bit at idle and I will need to read "lean" to get a better true AFR.
I am slightly concerned on one thing. I know roller lifters/rockers can be a noisy from what I have read. But I noticed my drivers side has a little bit more chatter than my passenger side. I took my valve covers and girdles off to readjust all the rockers and it didn't seem to change much. I will revisit tonight to see if I missed something while the valve cover was off. I hate the idea of running it with the valve cover off and making a mess but if that's what it takes then so be it.
I've got some jet ski customer work this weekend on to do, but will be trying to reassemble the interior and maybe go for a short slow test drive. Before I do any significant driving I really need new tires, the old ones are dry rotted pretty significantly.
Aside from youtube is there an easy way to post a video? I got one of it idling last night.
What is odd is I didn't touch that fitting during removal. So at the very least I haven't experienced a leak or any issues with that joint (or any of the others) since install in 2013. But I will definitely check that out. I'm not super happy with the extra length I've had with those hoses so might shorten them up some.
It probably won't make any difference, but if you're going to redo the fuel lines, I'd suggest swapping the inlet and outlets. Running the longer line to the inlet with the wide turn to the rail and straight fitting, while running the 90-degree fitting and shorter line (main reason) to the regulator would be a better "technical" layout. It's best to have the regulator as close to the fuel rail as possible. Again, probably won't see any benefit from it but if you can do it without buying new hoses, you might as well.
I understand what your saying, but regardless of how long that fitting has been run without leaking, I'd have to fix it. It might go another 10 years, but I sure wouldn't trust it to do so.
I can't wait for you to get it on the road and feel the difference the compression is going to do for you. Watch your knock count closely though - if you had maxed out the timing before, you'll have to pull a few degrees out of it under WOT for sure.
It probably won't make any difference, but if you're going to redo the fuel lines, I'd suggest swapping the inlet and outlets. Running the longer line to the inlet with the wide turn to the rail and straight fitting, while running the 90-degree fitting and shorter line (main reason) to the regulator would be a better "technical" layout. It's best to have the regulator as close to the fuel rail as possible. Again, probably won't see any benefit from it but if you can do it without buying new hoses, you might as well.
I understand what your saying, but regardless of how long that fitting has been run without leaking, I'd have to fix it. It might go another 10 years, but I sure wouldn't trust it to do so.
I can't wait for you to get it on the road and feel the difference the compression is going to do for you. Watch your knock count closely though - if you had maxed out the timing before, you'll have to pull a few degrees out of it under WOT for sure.
I did get that fitting snugged up the other night with almost all the gap gone. Checked the others as well and snugged them up as tight as I was comfortable doing.
Here is a shot of my SA table. I think it is on the conservative side but will definitely be watching it. I will only run premium fuel in this car as well.
Edit: looking at that something doesn't seem right...swore I saw a idle at 20* last night...thought I had my idle area matching in my main table.
Edit2: Guess my idle state was correct at 20* but my main table wasn't changed to match
Last edited by dabomb6608; 03-01-2024 at 08:41 PM.
Been busy with work/life past few days and haven't had a chance to test drive yet. I did get it down on all four wheels and shuffle it around the garage this evening to get it turned facing one of the garage doors to be able to drive it either tomorrow night or Wednesday night. Rain in the forecast tomorrow so will see what happens.
man I gotta get some motivation on mine it's almost the same combo, little less compression. even got a ebl laying in a box for it haha. been ran a few times around the block on the old code 59 from a to many years ago combo, ran horribly and I completely forgot how to tune it, so rather than read old stuff I walked inside and ordered a ebl. Just gotta install it haha. sadly that was probably a good year ago.
First test drive wasn't a complete success but it happened...all 2ish miles of it...
I've either got a brake caliper sticking or wheel bearings shot on my front passenger side. Money is on brake caliper. I've also got a tie rod that is in near fail mode. Ordering parts to fix those issues before next drive.
The good news is engine wise it felt very nice. I was keeping it nice and easy, especially once I was limping home from the front passenger side trying to stop rolling all together. Aside from some lean hiccups that will get tuned out, which dummy me completely forgot to start a datalog . But I was watching my WB gauge and have a general idea of areas to make some minor changes to the VE table before the next drive. Idle seems to like a WB reading in mid/high 14s with 28* of idle SA. My MAP was reading about 45-48 KPa at idle. That is almost 10 less than my best KPa I could achieve before all this work. I think this is where some of my initial leanness is popping up. My old "idle" KPa being higher I am now loading the engine in that old range that is still low and smoothed on my VE tables.
All in all I am really excited to actually drive this thing and start getting into the throttle.
First true drive was today and all I've got to say is WOW!
Completely different car. Even with fueling being off, the engine is full of power. VE learns were feeding all kinds of fuel in the upper KPa and RPMs. Each learn got better and better. It is truly crazy the difference I am already telling even in the WB with its consistency in readings. Before it was like I was constantly chasing my tail and could never get progress in my fueling.
The one thing I've noticed, and I guess I'm not terribly shocked about this due to the roller valve train noise, is my knock counts seem very sensitive. My SA table is pretty conservative, even more so than the one I posted above. But yet I was getting all sorts of knock counts even at light throttle cruise. Once I got home I pulled #1 & #2 spark plugs to see if there were any physical indications of spark knock. I'm not seeing any at this point but will certainly keep an eye on it moving forward. I am running premium fuel as well and plan to from now on.
knock sensor for a 406 has always been a worry of mine. nothing matches. I have the old 305 one stuck in there and I know it's not right.
2 options I've seem is just add a ton of Teflon tape and put it in loosely numbing it down and hope it's just for big events. not something to really rely on, but might help if a fuel pump goes out or injector gets plugged.
other is the ebl can use the external knock module and sensor from the LT-4 that had roller rockers stock. it's not the right size bore but it's something.
or since it's na. Just disable it and listen and use plug reads. with some luck and rich side tuning, with a conservative timing map it will be OK? and not worth the hassle.
knock sensor for a 406 has always been a worry of mine. nothing matches. I have the old 305 one stuck in there and I know it's not right.
2 options I've seem is just add a ton of Teflon tape and put it in loosely numbing it down and hope it's just for big events. not something to really rely on, but might help if a fuel pump goes out or injector gets plugged.
other is the ebl can use the external knock module and sensor from the LT-4 that had roller rockers stock. it's not the right size bore but it's something.
or since it's na. Just disable it and listen and use plug reads. with some luck and rich side tuning, with a conservative timing map it will be OK? and not worth the hassle.
Yeah this isn't a new problem either. I always had issues before with knock sensor picking up what I always believed was false knock. It seems to be slightly worse now.
Here is my current SA Table...certainly not very dramatic?
I guess it depends on if there's anything adding any to the final numbers, but you'd think 30ish deg on 93 would be fine. but I'm always left questioning the sensor might be right.
There aren't any adders at operating temp for my main table. And I am running open loop so no PE SA as well. Guess I will keep an eye on it while my VE Tables take shape and go from there.
I am liable to slow down here in the near future on it, my busy season with jet ski work is starting to take hold of my free time. I am just glad I got it up and running in time to be able to drive it here and there this summer.
Subscribed. Ive been looking at the First intakes for a long time and I even called Ken a few times. If I can't get my ASM runner deal where it should be I will be looking into a First.
Subscribed. Ive been looking at the First intakes for a long time and I even called Ken a few times. If I can't get my ASM runner deal where it should be I will be looking into a First.
I've always been impressed with the First intakes and how much they benefit over other stock style long tube setups. Granted, I'm not putting this car to any kind of real tests via dyno or drag strip. So I am strictly speaking from viewpoint of seat of the pants street experience.
No big updates. Drove the car for about 30 mins the other evening including topping the tank up with premium fuel. The tune seems to be coming along nicely. I keep getting more and more impressed with how it is running each time I drive it.
One thing I really am not too happy about is the UMI torque arm I installed. It feels terrible going over bumps and even when letting off the gas sometimes or reversing. It is like it has a ton of slop in it. Almost like when a factory torque arm bushing is shot. I need to get the car up on stands again to confirm I didn't miss something, but if this is just how this torque arm is going to be it will be getting removed.
Last edited by dabomb6608; 04-29-2024 at 10:20 AM.
glad you're out driving it and tuning that cam is going well.
the torque arm, does it still connect to the tranny? possible it broke the tranny mount?
It is a cross member mounted torque arm. I moved away from the trans mount because my factory torque arm with the TKO600 never seemed to fit with the bushing bracket right.
11-11-2023, 08:33 AM
