whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Hi all. After a grueling 4 month period of adjusting and playing with every imaginable setting and sensor on my motor, I snapped, and towed my car to a local performance shop to look at it. They had it hooked to a scanner, tried plugging into the PROM on the dyno and adjusting timing and fuel, and nothing worked. The scanner said everything was working perfect. After a valve adjustment, which had no affect either, they discovered the least thing I would have expected. My 1400$ mini ram set up did not mate to my heads correctly, and was causing a major vacuum leak in the lifter valley! I cant even believe right now that I wasted so much money on crap. All the hype about this manifold, and this is what happens. It's really sad to think about how I could have spent half the money on a stealthram and my car would have run perfect. I am ready to put a stick of dynomite in this thing and see how much peices I can turn it into. I have heard horror stories from others as well, and from the guys at the shop that looked at my car.

Has anyone else on here experienced this? Apparently I hear that this happens quite often with these manifolds. I know for a fact that I got the correct MR part number as well. TPIS has been nothing but helpful in trying to help me figure the problem out, but this is rediculous. I'm curious to see how many people have had this problem because these things are not cheap and I busted my *** to afford the supposed baddest intake on the block, and I am disgusted now.

spills

iTrader: (9)

damn man, that sucks. I do seem to hear about a few issues with the MR as compared to the HSR. im not that familiar with the MR though, does TPIS make them inhouse or are they just a distributor? Could it be possible that it's your heads that are machined incorrectly? That would suck even more, but could it be a possibility?

APACHE JOHN

I'd be interested in your deffective manifold.....

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Don't be so quick to blame the mini ram. Its lack of proper fitment. It could be the block, heads, or manifold. It could even be the combination of any of the above 3. If the heads have been angle milled or the block decked that will effect manifold fitment. My vote is on the block being decked. If the block was decked and the heads milled down the manifold needs to be milled to correct. You cannot fault TPIS in that circumstance. They build the mini-ram to fit on a stock dimension block and stock dimension heads. The trickflow ports may also be a different dimension and location (raised port heads)that are not compatible with the TPIS manifold, hardly TPIS' fault.

joeblue83

iTrader: (8)

They make them in shop. I have gone to there shop several times and they really try to help you if you have a problem. if you just bought it, I would recommend talking to Jim, he would either get you a new on or mill it down, so there would be no leak. By the way when I got mine it worked perfectly!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Stock deck block bored .30 over, untouched out of the box trick flow 23 degree heads(part# TFS-30400006 in summit)......trust me, if anything, it's the mini ram. I'm just not happy at all. A ton of money was spent and also a HUGE waste of time....4 months and a 500$ shop bill to find out I now have to spend even more money to correct this!!! And yes, Jim over at TPIS is great but hopefully he can get this settled without me spending another dime, or I WILL go another route like the HSR or edelbrock unit

ws6transam

Make sure to let Jim know that we are all discussing this on thirdgen.org and watching the thread to see the favorable outcome.

BTW, +1 for the miniram. Sorry to hear yours is causing trouble. Ask to have the miniram swapped out and see if the problem gets cured.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I would like to still use it as i know it will give the most power out of every other option out there, but I just feel like even though I may get one and the car will run, nothing is going to bring back the time and money spent to find out that i had a bad intake. I just wish there was something to prevent this. Nobody has ever had problems with holley units or edelbrock units not fitting right, and I'm sure they sell as much if not more than TPIS...where as a bunch of people have had mini ram issues. I'm sure I'll get more info on whats gonna happen in the next few days. I'll be sure to post it up, and hopefully it's good news.

Randy92Z

iTrader: (3)

Ive been running my Miniram and Trick Flow 23* heads for years now on my stock block 350 and now my rebuilt 383 with the block deck shaved .010 and a slight clean up on the heads. So far Ive had zero problems with my Miniram, sounds like you may have to send the intake back to TPIS for them to check it out or get you a different one. Just my .02c

BTW, did you get your Miniram port matched to a felpro 1205 intake gasket from TPIS?

vwdave

That, and run a straight edge and see if the flange is warped.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I ordered the mini ram that said it was meant for use with a 1205 gasket. I will look it over once I get it out which will hopefully be soon. My transportation guy is a hard man to get a hold of, so I will let you all know once I can finally get the car back to my house.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Similar combo to me.

How much vac are you seeing at a 900 RPM idle?

How do you know you have a vac leak?

-- Joe

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

At 900 RPM's it's making around 15 psi of vac, but everyone said the only thing it could be is the mini ram.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

At 900rpms it should make between 11-15hg of vac. sounds dead on to me.

What is the problem??

-- Joe

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

There is a popping coming through the intake when you step on the gas pedal that WILL NOT go away no matter what I do or adjust, and the car has no power what-so-ever....feels like a stock 305.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Not enough acceleration enrichment. This is typical of your combo. I've run this combo TWICE over the years. The miniram wants a LOT of AE, and so does the cam. You also want about 20 degrees of total advance at idle, and you want to ramp out from there to 24, 28, 32. I'd disable PE spark and put it all in the main table.

-- Joe

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

It seems like the engine is running so rich as it is though....I just don't understand how it would need more fuel than that? I tried adjusting the fuel pressure to 56PSI and it still ran like crap, but you could see the gas spitting out the tail pipes. I don't have the equipment to make changes like that either, and would rather not buy it, so not sure what I'm gonna do.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well. You have a combination that won't work with the stock tune. Globally making fuel pressure changes won't fix it. The combo of the cam and miniram wants less fuel at idle (a lot less), but more fuel during accel. If you didn't plan on buying the prom tuning gear you should have went carb.

I don't know what else to tell you.

-- Joe

spills

iTrader: (9)

you can't sink money into a motor and hope that it works as-is, every motor needs to be tuned, EFI and carb alike. Even if it were a carb motor, the jets might have to be changed, power valve, etc. Same goes for efi. Once you go changing air flow characteristics the motor is used to, you need to tune it accordingly. You can either buy prom burning stuff and DIY, buy a tuned PROM from somewhere on here (I guess, I went from carb -> Megasquirt, no real PROM experience), or take it to a good shop and pay them to tune it on the dyno. At some point though, you're going to have to pay to get it tuned in one way or another.

I would ASSUME that there are people on here (or on the net somewhere) that will burn a chip with your motors specs taken into consideration. Id look into something like that. If you're just looking for a "basic tune", I would say thats your best option.

But back to the original problem, have you been able to determine if it is indeed the MR that is machined incorrectly, or could the problems be traced back to an untuned motor?

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

I have been running my Miniram and 1206 intake gaskets on AFR 210's 75cc heads . I have been learning alot about this also. You MUST GOTTA HAVE TOO add (AE) acceleration enrichment to your ECM program. There is nothing wrong with your intake. Mine was doing the same thing when I 1st started it up. You need to turn down your adjustable fuel regulator back to around 43 PSI though. You are beating a dead horse trying to adjust fuel through your regulator. Roughly I had to turn my AE up almost 35% because of the mini-ram.

zz4350

In reading this entire post you need to determine 1) if the Mini Ram isn't properly fitting. I would assume you did a trial fit when putting the motor together and this should have been caught if the fit was defective. TPIS should help correct it if it's a defective product. 2) What are the details of your engine mgmt system. Was this a 305 swap to a 355 and are you still using the stock computer and original chip. If so it won't run worth poop. You need to have a chip to cover the injector size/ fuel pressure you have and as stated, the Mini Ram must have a lot of AE added and I'm guessing you will need to trim the idle and light cruize fueling tables plus several other areas. I have been running with a Mini Ram II (1204 gasket size using a 1205 gasket)/52 mm TB/Ram Air/24lb SVO injectors at 50 psi to cover engine output/113 Dport heads (ported with 2.02/1.6 necked valves with back cuts and larger valve seats)/ZZ409 cam with 1.5 roller rockers and GM performance springs/1-7/8 long tube headers and large catback exhaust system. I started with the TPIS stage 6 chip on my 89 Vette/6 spd/blue printed ZZ4 Short block all stock except for ARP fastners AND I had to get into doing my own chips to pass emissions and get the drivability where I can live with it as very motor is different. I'm on chip 140 and still chasing the tune where I want it to be.

vwdave

For the amount youve paid in PROMs, you just about could have bought standalone.

zz4350

We don't realy know if he has had a custom prom made for his setup or not or what engine mgmt system he is running if it's other than stock.

spills

iTrader: (9)

Megasquirt it!!! ~$350 and a laptop you can tune the bejesus out of that motor

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Your telling me! Trust me, I'm no newbie to engines, and I have had 2 professionals so far make proms for me, and the problem did not go away. The first time was a guy i knew that did it, and the second time was a TPIS stage 6 chip. If TPIS cant even get it to run halfway decent, then i'm assuming it's not the chip. The injectors are brand new ford 30lbs. I have had numerous posts up about this and I have not heard anything that has helped me. The only info I can give you is that J&M motorsports in Manchester has the car right now, and he said he added 20% more fuel through the computer and it actually ran pretty good and the popping went away, but he said that was a ton of fuel for the car. Apparently hes a pro at chip burning, and I'm guessing if something was off while it was on the emulator, he would have caught it. He tested every part of the car and told me hes 99% sure it's the mini ram. I know NOTHING about prom burning, so I would never know if what I'm hearing is correct or bullshit. I am the type that wants a chip burned, and to just drive the car.....I really am not picky if I could get another 15 horsepower out of playing with a tune.

If someone wants to come plug into my setup and see how everything looks, I would gladly appreciate it!! I would throw you some money too. I am at the point of giving up and buying a fourth gen, because honestly, no car is worth as much trouble as this one has put me through so far.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I think he's a goon, but that's just my opinion. It IS the miniram but not in the way he thinks. Your vac is within the range for the cam and intake. Again, I've run this exact combo TWICE (it's my current motor). The problem is the tune. And, maybe the people you are bringing the car to.

The miniram + cam combo wants LESS FUEL than stock in the idle and lower VE ranges, it then wants a quick burst of fuel when you snap the throttle (AE). The cam also wants 20* idle, and wants to ramp out VERY quickly to about 32 degrees. Your trickflow heads also like a lot of timing as they are not a fast burn design.

Yeah but you need to be able to tune it. There is a lot of little stupid things that need tinkering.

You should send a PM to forum member AC. He lives near you and might be able to help. If my shop was still open I'd offer you to swing it by, but I closed in may and am done forever.

-- Joe

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I will PM AC and see what he says. Oh and you closed your shop a few months too early!!!! Haha. Mike at J&M did say that when he injected propane it woke right up, and then he added fuel through the chip and that helped a lot too. It's unfortunate that you can't even pay an arm and a leg for good help . Anyways, hopefully I can get this figured out....thanks for the words of advice anesthes. -Rob

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Interesting, did they pull the plugs to check to see if they were fouled, as well as the oil level before and after to confirm this, or are they just feeding you fodder because they can't figure it out? I think there are way too many variables being overlooked here. Was the cam installed during the same time as the heads and miniram, and was it installed straight up....?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

What he should have done, was, allow for the some of the propane to go through the PCV valve, and or breather hole, and see how the engine reacts. This is an old time trick to determine if there is a vacuum leak in the lifter valley for engines w/out a valley pan....

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I looked at the plugs....they looked like they were burning pretty good actually, and the car has used no oil in the entire time I have been running and test driving it. I installed the cam when the heads and mini ram were put on, yes, and I installed it just by lining the dots on the timing chain. Nobody thinks the car is a tooth off though because of the way it idles and runs.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I seriously doubt it is the miniram then, it sounds like a very minor thing, just frustrating because you didn't find the source of it yet. Popping in the intake manifold, and poor performance obviously points to a bad mixture, and or bad timing. Your pulling good vacuum at idle. You did state though that you were literally have fuel coming out of your exhaust. Am I correct in assuming that your plug wires are routed correctly, and that your distributor is not 180 degrees off....?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Wires are definately correct....I have checked them probably 8 times now, haha. I tried swapping the wires to make them 180 off and that definately wasn't it.

25thannivZ28

I had the same problem, check this thread out. My car runs flawless now! Good luck!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...-backfire.html

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^

25thannivZ28, we really don't have much to go on other than the following....

.... I believe a new tuner should be on order, as saying that 20% more fuel was added throughout, knowing full well that it's way more than it really needs, doesn't sound like a very credible tuner to begin with. Sounds like he's looking for a quick remedy, without finding the actual cause of the problem. Can J&M provide any details, so we can at least take a peek?

25thannivZ28

Okay, I was just sharin my experience with hopes that it would contribute to a solution to his problem. Not sure what you're getting at?? Anyways, good luck w/your resolution. Mini-ram is still the way to go, IMO

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Relax, what I was implying was that your fix was in the VE tables, but WhiteDevilTA apparently had his tables looked at repeatedly already, and unless J&M Motorsports is inadvertently giving a bad tune, which I'm assuming they aren't, his problem more than likely lies somewhere else. What would really put an end to all of this speculation would be if J&M Motorsports would provide him with some data logs....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I have not really seen anything to indicate they have made any VE changes.

Every time this comes up with a a guy with a miniram and a cam, AE fixes it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

His vac sounds dead on, the motor doesn't skip. It's the tune. The stock bins expect 19" of runner to get the air flowing.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ Very strange occurrence though. The XR276 cam specs are 224/230 @ .050, and he seems to be running adequate sized injectors, and more than enough fuel pressure. The Miniram definitely outflows the majority of intake manifold's out there, but the amount of air entering it's orifice is still being dictated by the throttle body though. Is the miniram that velocity effective that it causes such a consistent problem....?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Slipped dampner ring causing timing to be off? Has that been verified?

Your VE (fuel) curve will end looking pretty much like an LT1 fuel curve.
You will need more AE compared to the TPI intake. 20-30% is a good starting point.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is not the issue.

On a TPI setup you have small long runners, a quick throttle blurp won't get to the cylinder very fast and in a large enough amount, so the AE enrichment is low. In fact, most TPI cars skip over AE right into PE because the air lags.

On a singleplane manifold, miniram, or LT1 you have a very small wide and straight runner. A quick throttle change quickly fills the plenum, and cylinder causing a sudden lean condition until the upper VE makes up for it.

This is why adding 20+ percent more AE under the TPS ae adder fixes the problem.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... and Joe just underlined the problem here, again. The tuner threw too much fuel throughout. I just realized that when WhiteDevilTA stated that 20% was added, he literally meant above and beyond. Joe is absolutely right.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

my mini-ram ran ok on a stock tune with 25lb injectors yeah it was rich but still had alot of power after the tune it still runs rich unless its wot.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is why I stated that....;

zz4350

I doubt it's the intake but it's easy to remove and check if you have to be convinced. Idle vac seems ok. My stage 6 TPIS chip for my setup had the same intake popping and way too rich idle, After I got into logging and buring my own I discovered TPIS uses a very tame Spark table with the max PE spark at 30 degrees. They zero out the PE spk add table on my 6E bin.
In addition they do NOTHING about AE where I now have mine close to maxed out in many areas plus they don't touch the stock MAF tables anywhere expecially in the idle and light cruize areas making for a rich idle.
Their way of crutching for fuel is to lower the TPS engagement point for PE from 70% stock at all rpms to 60% at 400 rpms quickly down to 25% at 3600 rpms. Lots of fuel at WOT but light cruizing and idle stink to the point you could take off from a stop sign add too much peddle and the motor will stall out in the middle of the intersection. So I feel your frustration. At the present I'm chasing knock counts by lowering thre SA TABLE to a point now where I can take off just using the clutch and no gas with no bucking and my setup isn't much different from yours. I've lost the low rpm break the tires loose kick at 25% throttle but I can drive like a little old lady around town.

If you ain't got a mechanical problem you need a good tune and that may mean spending a couple of hundred on gear and a steep learning curve to figure it out, however it's addictive. At the very least you have to be able to get some logs done so someone can see whats going on.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Why are you quoting me though lol? I too believe that it isn't the intake, in fact, it's in my words that you quoted. Vacuum is also just about right as well....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah I saw that too, but don't really know what he means. It's like any thing else, he got about 20% of what the mechanic said, and we're getting about 20% of that

-- Joe

zz4350

I quoted you because I agree with everything you said and to help make the point that the Mini Ram is a different beast than the long tube stock intake.

Grim Reaper

You cannot imagine how many guys on the DIY Prom Board came because TPIS could NOT get it tuned right. Worst, once they learned and checked what TPIS did...they were STUNNED how little TPIS actually did and thought they were totally ripped off.

With a setup like yours, you really MUST learn how to tune it yourself. Most professional tuners only tune for WOT and hope to get the part throttle to run "half-***" with closed-loop. And I do mean "half-***".

Only tuning it yourself will ever get it to run REALLY well ALL THE TIME!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What is worse is these "professional tuners" all learned from DIY PROM, started prom businesses and have not been heard from since.

-- Joe

zz4350

Grim Reaper and Anesthes have said it all. If you want a truely good running motor you have to learn to tune it yourself. I started by just wanting to plug in a chip and go but it doesn't work very well when you have a warm motor. If you learn to log and start to understand whats really going on as you drive you will eventually want to tune it yourself. Its work, but its fun and there's a significant few on this site who spend a lot of time giving back to the DIY community so those like me can learn to a reasonable level. I'll never get into source codes and the like but I'm going to use the snot out of everything else and maybe learn something in the process.