maxpain

Background: got tired of the LO3 obviously, decided to finally go for a swap. Carbs aren’t my thing, so was only looking to swap in something newer. LT1 didn’t seem like a good step up hp-wise, but also didn’t have enough cash for the LSs. The only logical answer to me was some of the newer truck engines. Found a nice and cheap LQ4 from an H2 with just 20k miles for just 900$. Started collecting all the necessary stuff to fit in a 3gen. Since I have a 4” hood, did not need neither the lower intake nor any of the accessories because of that. So everything was falling in place for the budget swap. Managed also to buy a new GM reman trans for the hummer for less than 1.5K$.

And then the budget swap fell apart because the stock rear end would definitely not hold the new hp. Obviously could not swap anything in because of the width, bolt pattern, etc. So I quickly realized that the most expensive part of the engine swap would be…. the rear end…

Search showed that only a few companies would sell a bolt-on 3gen rear end that hit all the marks. One of them was Hawks Motorsports and since I’ve been buying stuff for my car from them for over 6 years with no issues I quickly decided that they would be the obvious right choice.

I wrote them an e-mail, listing all the specs, that I have a truck engine and transmission, etc. Pretty much full on relied on their expertise for all the internals and gear ratio. I was promised an "up to 800hp" rear end which looked like and overkill for my 350hp+ and which I was very happy about.

In a couple of months I finally received the beautiful thing. It bolted right in, the 4gen brakes, all the shocks, arms and everything, I was very happy. And this is one of those times, when you prepare for or build something and there are things you are absolutely sure will not let you down, unlike the used engine, rebuilt transmission or wiring.



I was ready for the first drives for a lot of stuff to fail. And I had a couple of those obviously, like efans blowing the wrong way, exhaust hitting everything, suspension clicking and rattling…or at least what I thought was the suspension…

After fixing everything and retightening of the suspension and every other bolt I could find I understood that all the noises that were driving me crazy came from the….rear end…

Opened it up and was very disappointed to say the least. Here’s the list of the problems I found. And this is the final list, that I came up with within several days, because I invited a couple of axle specialists to make sure I’m not making anything up. All problems are backed with videos, or photos. Total mileage of the rear end is less than 700 miles.

- Backlash of the main ring gears is out of any possible tolerance – over 0.3mm (0,01“)




- Satellite gears are loose in all directions (not only along the rod, as they should be a little, but against it too)

- Satellite rod has wear marks under the gear which makes me think was put in used






- Axle shafts are very loose in the diff and the bite on the teeth is minimal, less than 15%






- Outside bearings (the ones near wheels) seem to be old and used, because they distinctly grind when turned by hand

- First time the axle was opened at ~300 miles, cleaned and new oil put in. At ~600 miles there are lots of metal flakes everywhere and obviously on the magnet













- Friction plates were still dry (should have been soaked before first assembly)

Also driving at 60mph in 4th makes 2100rpm which is at least 300rpm higher than it would be on any normal car. I’m thinking they overlooked that I said the trans is from a truck (with appropriate ratios) and they just put whatever they put in regular 3gens.




















Now I have no problem with parts and services that go wrong, it happens. How people (companies) account for their mistakes is what counts. So I wrote to Hawks. Had to remind them 3 times to answer me anything. They finally answered and gave me a number to call which did not work. I wrote them again, they asked for my digits this time. Wrote them every week or two after that to remind them about the problem. Only once in a while I would get something like “the axle guy is very busy at the shop, he will get back to you”. And this wasn’t a personal e-mail, I have been writing to the main “sales” address. After a while to get more attention I wrote to Ashton, who I’ve been following on Instagram, she answered and promised to “talk to the guys and find out what is up”. Unfortunately that also resulted in nothing.

This happened in the beginning of June. It’s been 4 months. Still trying to reach them…

punkmaster98

iTrader: (5)

stay on them and hopefully they will do right by you. I had an issue and i called every week. Bruce himself called me and sorted it out. I hope things work out for you.

midias

That is crazy I was thinking about getting one of those. Guess it is time to rethink not just from a quality level but from a customer service level

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I just built my own rearend using the Ford 8.8 center and the GM axle shafts and GM axle tubes. I think all of these rearends are built similarly in that the GM tubes are welded to the Ford tubes. If the axle shafts have excessive in and out play it's possible that they were slightly off in one of their measurements before welding to which their may be no fix for now. If it were me I would try to locate a used carrier (is yours a 31 spine?) from an explorer and just rebuild it's traction lock (Ford M-4700B) and a run of the mill gear change kit and set it up yourself. You seem to know what you're doing. Then just get Hawks to reimburse you for your parts cost. This seems like a far cheaper option than exchange shipping to Russia! The stock Ford Traction Lock with the shim/friction plate order changed makes it very nice. I'm enjoying mine.

maxpain

Thanks for the info. I haven't decided what to do yet, I'm still hoping Hawks will propose their idea of problem solving. Shipping the thing back to them is definitely not an option, I've already paid like half of the price of the axle for shipping it here. So sending it back and paying again for shipping another one back to me will result in an astronomical amount of money overall. It is already the most expensive part on my bird and the least working one

firebrdo88

iTrader: (1)

I love my Moser 9" cant go wrong with it. I had doubts on the whole 8.8 the price isn't cheap enough to make sense as an option unless you are making your own. Hopefully hawks will step up on this or refund some cash back so you can have it done local to you.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Max, I'm sorry you're having trouble. Looking at the pics you posted, it's obvious you're very meticulous with your car.

I'm kind of puzzled that someone as thorough you would spend all that money on a rearend and be so passive when there are problems. If it was me, I would have called their main number 864-855-2694 and told them I needed to speak to Bruce ... ESPECIALLY when you received such a lukewarm response to your initial complaint. When you put that kind of money into a part and there are problems, you can reasonably expect the people you bought it from to fall all over themselves to make it right. Nothing less is acceptable.

I've had a very different experience with Hawk's. I'm not challenging your story, I just can't believe Bruce Hawkins would tolerate that type of customer service from his company. He is VERY involved, and has always been a square-dealer with me. More than that. In the conversations I've had with him, Bruce came off as a car guy who loves these cars and enjoys helping people who love them too. I bought a set of 17" GTA wheels from him this year. I wanted them custom powder coated, and Bruce jumped through a lot of hoops to get that done for me. I'm not one of his buddies, just a 3rd Gen guy who called on the phone. You've spent a lot more money with him than I have; I just can't believe he'd tolerate your being treated like that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet if you email him about this at bruce@hawksmotorsports.com and explain what has happened, you'll get a response, and quick.

Now about your gear ratio. I'd think it would be on the build sheet. If it isn't, you can check it by counting the teeth on the ring, and the teeth on the pinion. Then divide the teeth on the ring by the teeth on the pinion. Say there's 41 teeth on the ring and 12 teeth on the pinion. 41/12=3.42 (ish).

If you've closed the rearend back up, just make a mark on one of the wheel studs, and make a mark on the pinion yoke (or driveshaft if it's still connected). Then rotate the axle until the mark on the wheel stud has made exactly one revolution. As you turn it, count the revolutions of the pinion yoke or driveshaft. If you have a 3.42 gear, for example, your pinion yoke will rotate just under 3 1/2 times. If you have a 3.73, it'll rotate just about 3 3/4 times. 4.11s, a bit over 4 times ...

maxpain

Thanks for the input!

The guy I was talking to in the e-mails (Ryan Adams) said that he had spoken to Bruce and showed him my videos. He said that Bruce said that the backlash of the main gears had to be measured with the axles out (the first video I sent them I was measuring it indeed with the axles in). But this statement is kind of dumb technically, because with the axles out, the backlash would be even bigger, because less parts are dragging on the diff and the gears. So I'm getting an overall sense that they do not want to resolve this...

The gear ratio they sent is 3.73.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

If I were you, I would definitely insist on speaking directly with Bruce.

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

the welds on the inside of the axle tubes look absolutely horrible as well, looks like they went at it with an underpowered mig welder

i was seriously considering ordering two rear ends from them for me and my brothers car, even spoke to them about freight shipping two of them on the same pallet to save freight charges. really glad i didn’t go through with it.

hawksthirdgen

HI MAx , I got your email this am and apologize for the delay , I replied back to you and we will discuss getting a resolve that fixes any to all issues with our piece , we work hard on making sure this is the BEST aftermarket rear on the market for these cars and obviously this does not show that and we are gonna make it right . I look forward to our discussion and the opportunity to get you taken care of !

hawksthirdgen

HI,
Thank you for the opportunity at looking at or products , no need to rethink this at all shoot me a email personally and I will be happy to personally make sure you are taken care of with the highest quality product !

hawksthirdgen

There are reasons we chose to build a 8.8 bolt in unit for these cars and this obviously does not help my case ( but we will get Max taken care of ) the 9in is a great rear but there are a few reasons we prefer the 8.8 over it but that is a opionated statement and to each person there own I have had a few 9in in my time as well so I promise Im not a hater . BTW I follow you on IG LOVE YOUR CAR !!

hawksthirdgen

!
The welds in the axle tube are a small detourant against tube movement while outer welds are being done, I would hope Max may post a pic of the outside welds and I think all the other welds on the axle are more than up to par!

hawksthirdgen

HI < I do want to say I appreciatte most of you guys understanding I am a car guy and this type of service is not acceptable for me , Thank you for the confidence and I hope to help each one of you at some point and to Max I apologize for the delay in getting you a resolve so late !

Thank you Bruce Hawkins !

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Are you using new axle tubes for these 8.8s?

hawksthirdgen

Yes sir , to be exact the ONLY used part is the cast 8.8 center housing m ALL of our tubes and brackets are all new and we build just as Moser or Currie would do , With the exception that we have ONE EMPLOYEE that does ALL of our housings and has from day one that way I am 100% sure my housing quality is there and always has been . We also have one separate employee that does all of our assembly to ensure quality as well one of the two reasons that I have only had less than a handful of issues less than 5 to be exact in the almost 400 rear axles we have in the market and the issues they have always been a clutch style diff issue and one was a failed axle bearing. I will be happy to answer any questions you guys have on these units . Thanks again for the opportunity !

Thanks,
Bruce Hawkins

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

regardless of the welds purpose, there’s no justification for an ugly cold weld. i understand what you’re saying regarding it’s purpose but i know very few welders who would want to put their name on a cold weld like that and say “it’s fine, it’s just for____ anyways”

i like hawks a lot and think it’s a great company but you guys did this guy wrong and swept it under the rug until he made this post and it got some attention.

hawksthirdgen

Thanks for the reply since the welds are a concern I will get some pics this evening for everyone’s approval and post ! Unfortunately forums are a way for people to see a side of the story but not know all the story . I agree this should not have been taken this long to get a response and I am handleing that internally but no one done anyone wrong he simply has a diff issue and I am working on handling it as we speak not to mention the rear axle was purchased in 2017 . Ask yourself this how many aftermarket rear axle companies would solve a issue a year and a half after the sale . No one here is trying to do anything wrong nor am I trying to sway someone toward us just want to give the facts from my angle ! Most importantly I have a unhappy customer and want to fix the issue regardless of the forum post ! Not being unprofessional at all and I do appreciate your feedback and am glad you are a fan and customer . Thanks again guys

maxpain

Like I stated in my first post, I like how the whole thing looks and I had no issues connecting the axle to the car. All the arms, shocks, brakes fit right in.
Here's how it looked when I received it.

maxpain

You were very right, after I wrote Bruce, things started to move much quicker.
Last time we spoke, he promised to send me a new diff, gears and bearings.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I'm glad to hear that. I hope everything works out well. Now that Bruce is directly involved, I've got a feeling they will.

voltirocz

Hi Bruce, I sent Casey a link of my shopping cart, I need help with the width, and selecting the correct posi and ratios. I will give Hawks a call tomorrow to discuss and close the deal.

thx mrirocz1987

hawksthirdgen

Your parts were on the way as of last week , sorry again for the trouble this will get you fixed u !

Anyone else interested would love to discuss a rear axle .

Thanks again guys!
Bruce Hawkins

hawksthirdgen

Casey tells me he has been in contact and taking care of you , let me know if I can help personally !

Thanks,
Bruce Hawkins

JAYDUBB

May I ask WHY? I will be looking for a rear REAL SOON after I scatter this stock one. LOL

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Its really personal opinion cant go wrong with 9" or 8.8 but the biggest thing is that a 9" will have more drivetrain loss then a 8.8
and with a 12 bolt a lot people complain about drivetrain noise and high wear and people usually rebuild to correct so the upkeep is a little more
im not sure why im no expert just base of what I seen in the forums and locally
so a lot of people like the 8.8 for those reasons kinda like having your cake and eating it too now if your pushing crazy hp and racing
and quick gear swaps is important then the 9" will be more beneficial due to that fact but for regular daily drivers weekend warriors
8.8 is more than enough

maxpain

Update, got new diff, ring and pinion and shaft bearings from Bruce.
Thought this would be a next year job, but since winter is so late this year, will be installing these within the next few days.

texas_rebel

Any updates? I've been eyeballing this rear end also. Glad to see Bruce got everything taken care of.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I'm looking at an 8.8 when my 10bolt finally dies. I too look forward to the updates on this one.

maxpain

Took some time, but new parts are in!

I believe that most problems came with the initial posi unit, which I think was Yukon Dura Grip. But I am not a 100% on this, because I don't see any p/n's on it.
The shafts flew in that Yukon unit like they were several sizes smaller and the satellite gears were all over the place (can be seen in my initial videos above).
Bruce sent me a Nitro worm gear posi (torsen if you like) instead. Now the same shafts had to be hammered in! Also since this is a different type of differential with no satellite gears, there is absolutely no play in it as well.
New ring and pinion is in and the backlash is set to the lower side of the regular tolerance.

Now there are no clicks and rattles at low speeds when going on and off the pedal and no noises on bumps and turns.
Finally everything feels as solid as I expected from the beginning!

Yes, I wish it was like this in the first place, but **** happens and I am happy that this was resolved in the end.
Thanks to Bruce for making it happen and to you guys on this thread for support!



Bird is finally in for the winter

kestell123

I had many of the same or similar problems with the 8.8 that I bought from Hawks. I liked the fabrication work on the rear end but the set up was done very poorly. The solution was to have it locally torn down and put together right, like it should have been in the first place. This had to be done at my cost, Bruce did not offer to help cover the cost of fixing the problems caused by his people. This increased the cost of the rear end by hundreds of dollars. I had hoped that Bruce cleaned up the build quality, but I guess not. The fabrication on these is very good but I would advise everyone to buy the bare housing and have the guts assembled locally. If you check my other posts I described in detail what I went through with my 8.8. Bruce, if you cant build it right the extra cost should be yours, NOT THE CUSTOMERS!

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Holy mufflers batman. Why so many? Usually a single one after the muffler, or dual before the axle is all that's needed.

maxpain

With a cam, with no cats a single straight-through muffler is never enough, unless you want to bleed out of your ears
I deleted the third one in the end because it was boiling the fuel in the tank. And 2 mufflers that are left are barely making highway driving bearable!

maxpain

Sorry to hear.
Yep, I spent at least a 1000$ extra on assembling/disassembling it several times, buying oil every time etc.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Several people complaining about quality control on their 17" GTA wheels too.

Makes you think.