jmd

iTrader: (4)

I wonder if the manufacturer of the parts was copying other Tilton master cylinders or the Tick bracket or what?

MuhThugga

I saw this. Just one more reason I won't do business with Hawk's.

upur86maro

I am just getting back on TGO, Man I am so angry... just bought a hawks clutch master cylinder kit, with everything it was roughly $330, which I've got no problem spending, in fact I would have happily spent double that if I knew what I was getting/ getting into...


the "bolt-on" kit is far from advertised. I THOUROGHLY asked the salespeople and the technician before purchasing, information regarding ease of installation. As expected, I was reassured that it would only take an hour and a half to install...


right... no anything but. the fitment of the clutch master cylinder, the line, and information included is hardly adequate to say the least. BOTH of the included bracket bolts are 1/2" short (honestly studs would have been a much smarter way, and I will be going about it that way). I am going to be relieving the fender well on the drivers side to clearance for the unnecessarily long 90degree AN fitting. I could probably play around with the AN fittings I have, but would rather keep the AN fitting on the end of the knockoff master cylinder, as I don't care to go into finding an angled -3 AN swivel. the icing on the cake is the ABSURDLY long stainless braided line... about 18" too long. I don't know who came up with this kit, makes me wonder if it was even designed for 1982-1992 F-Bodies...


I called them today. got the "real" story on the kit. "sometimes we have to move the brake booster" and "sometimes we have to reshape the wheel well" yeah, this is anything but an "hour and a half" install. I will NOT recommend HAWKS THIRD GENERATION to ANYONE...


here is the link to the knockoff kit that I was conned into buying... I should have bought the American Powertrain Kit, as they are honest enough to admit that my car will need some modification to make their kit fit.


DO NOT PURCHASE!!!


http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/84...-cylinder-kit/

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Disclaimer: If/when Hawks labelled their product as Tick, that is not right..

As far as copying someone's idea and reselling it, that is a grey area.

The product page looks the same as Tick's... It is just a machined aluminum block, that holds a Tilton master cylinder. Tick uses the same 90* curved fitting on the hose. The "extra long" hose would fit a T56 just fine, and would also be too long to be marketed for a T5. The higher price at Hawks vs Tick is partly due to the included slave cylinder.

BTW, I did buy a Tick adjustable master during a holiday sale. I spend some time with a grinder/flap wheel to shape it a little nicer, and give more fender well clearance... along with some hammering on the fender well. Although, when I drilled the mounting holes, I could have located it 1/4"-1/2" toward the center of the car for more clearance. I also went the stud and nut route... much easier to install. I also swapped the 13/16" cylinder for a 3/4" to get a lighter pedal... I don't need the "shorter travel", and I've gotten spoiled with my late model DD.

upur86maro

Very detailed answer MoJoe, over the past week I've started to jump over to the idea, as a guy who is pretty heavily involved in short track racing I see lots of "copied" parts. Parts evolve so fast there's almost no reason to patent. I purchased the kit over the phone and not once was it mentioned that there was even the slightest chance of there being a need for modification. After looking into it, there wasn't much of a difference between their product and the american powertrain kit. I likely would have had to spend the same amount of time for both. Bruce himself was so kind to call me the following morning after my previous post asking me to remove it. He was so generous as to refund me my money and pay for it to be shipped back, but i recall reading a thread on a sonoco hood that he sold (Fiberglass isn't my thing anyway so I'll just drop it). I felt the need to do my duty and I'll be as unbiased in my stress test regarding the product as I can be. I cannot confirm the origin of the tilton MC, but neither can tilton.

It would be a far stretch to POSITIVELY confirm that the cylinder is a copy, even if it is, the likelihood of failure, well let's just call it a shot in the dark, no one's word will be valid here. Aside from resizing the wheel well and completely removing the brake booster (to install the mc) I'd recommend that everyone considering upgrading to this kit or any similar kit do the same as I did. first off, reshaping the wheel well was easy enough, using a large ball peen hammer I moved a fairly significant portion of the wheel well inward, then used mr. Blue tip to heat the double walled seam up and make just enough room for the end of the mc. There was a good amount of time spent making sure the mc would fit with enough room to remove should any particular part fail. (Always remember the bathtub rule for any potential part failure). Now the end of the mc has a straight AN fitting, I'm going to go forth and use the straight fitting and connect the 90degree end to it. Bruce if you read this I highly recommend a swivel fitting (maybe a 135degree) on the mc, as it would do wonders for clearance with the frame rail. (I have roughly 1/16" between the frame rail and the apex of the 90degree fitting). I hope that the frame does not flex, I KNOW that if I get in a fender bender I will have wished I changed out the fitting on the end of the master cylinder for some swivel fitting.

Bruce seems like any good businessman, he wants his business to succeed, at any cost. After losing my future business I hope he can move on and adapt from this mistake. Honesty is key. He "honestly" says he can have a technician install this in 45-90min. It's with great displeasure that I have to inform everyone here that it took me 22.5 man hours to do the entire job from start to finish (between myself and a friend). I am sure someone could do this in a shorter amount of time, but I am EXTREMELY particular and take every precaution necessary to make this swap as smooth and as easy as possible. If he comments, I am sure he's going to say I took way too long. That's just fine, I know I took way too long with it. Another shot in the dark, I've owned 3 third generation Camaros, none of which had ANY visible differences in this area (specifically surrounding the clutch master cylinder). Bruce's second claim was these cars were different from 1982-92. I haven't worked on the number of cars he's had his hands on, and I will have to take his word for it. But in my "dabbling" in third gens, I haven't seen a difference in firewall/wheel well fit and finish.

Bruce can't talk me into removing my post, but I will give the employees of Hawks this much. They deserve praise, maybe not for the claims made before the purchase but for the actions of one employee... After opening the package and removing the broken parts from the car, I quickly realized this would be no quick task (installing the mc kit). Upon realizing this I called Hawks and asked to speak with a technician. I talked with Steven (if I recall correctly) he was the first employee of Bruce's to give me a straight answer regarding the install of this clutch master cylinder. He said there was a chance I'd have to resize the wheel well and warned me about the brake booster being in the way. Steven deserves applause, he clearly felt bad I was promised ease of install, and did not want to put me at further strife. He identified my concerns, and addressed them without positively confirming my biggest fears. It's hard to fix someone's issues over the phone. Unlike Bruce, Steven did not hang up on me.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

"TILTON" is cast into the side of the cylinder. I would (almost) guarantee this is an authentic Tilton part. It is not worth the cost and effort to mfg your own knock off master cylinders unless you are really going to try to sell LOTS of them. IMHO Hawks would NOT go out of their way to offer a substandard part here... The only downfall here would be if Bruce happened to find a Chinese mfg knocking off Tilton, or he found a sweet price and ended up with a counterfeit, just like MSD 6's are getting counterfeit. I assume he just called Summit or other supplier to source authentic parts for his kit.

Anyone could machine a aluminum block, assemble an AN hose, and source a few misc parts. The only sin here was claiming it was a Tick part. (And that is only what I've read, and have no first hand confirmation).

Having bought "bolt-on" parts before, you likely have had experience to show this term is more correctly "mostly bolt on" and something probably needs a little massaging to fit. Also, the Tick MC is designed for a 4th gen (stock T56 after all) and may have different clearance in that area.

I am not trying to be a Hawks fan boy here. My n=1 experience with Hawks has been 100% positive regarding talking with them, ordering, billing, receiving parts as expected, and on time.

YMMV.

upur86maro

MoJoe, you're totally right. Glad you know about the msd boxes too (it's appalling) but hey I guess everyone has their industry. I heard a statistic in the news yesterday that 9/10 packages seized at borders are Chinese copies of retail products, sad to call it an industry but that's the world we live in.

Another point you're completely right about, this would make for an awesome kit for a T56 swap. The line is probably just long enough. T56's are the bar we all kinda set the standards at. I hope Bruce reads/sees this thread.

I know all about "mostly bolt in" products, and this by far was no exception. I'll say this much, one of my biggest pet peeves when building anything is when heim-joints bind (caused by some angle in the rod) and if you bolt this kit in the stock location (without moving/slotting the mounting holes for the mc) you WILL have no angle in the rod going to the master cylinder. That he can be proud of. Also when doing this, make sure to use body and seam sealer when mounting the bracket and mc to the firewall. I could go on and on about the nitty details regarding this product, and if he ever decided to ask for it, I would love to sit down and write a critical analysis of the product, displaying its strenglths and weaknesses, WITH my suggestions for areas of improvement. I hope he does well with this product, he's the only one who markets/targets the third and fourth generation F-Body crowd with a viable answer to clutch master cylinder failure.